You don't know the infamous China-hating, Taiwan independent activist that is Lil? Welcome to the DnD...again.
Leave it to Michecon to enrich the discussion with personal attacks. If you can't fight the logic and can't face the facts, get out of my way. Your flames merely reflect poorly upon your own character.
I'm just saying when you speak about "atrocities" and start comparing it with the Holocaust, don't exaggerate it to 30 million ok? It makes you look bad. Be factually. People die in war....America doesn't call what Japan did to Pearl Harbor a "war crime" even though civilians died. The english aren't still mad at the germans for the bombing of London! Many civilians were killed then too. I'm just calling you out on the way you use your numbers and then try to compare it to the Holocaust....which I think is bad taste to do.
You are joking right? The crux of your argument is that Mao was never tried? Is there any denying that he did terrible things at least on par with the atrocities of war criminals? I'm sure that the Japanese War criminals did other things in their lives as well. Isn't it possible that the Japanese are not visiting the shrine to pay homage to their war crimes but rather for their service on behalf of Japan. The exact same arguments you are making to show that a shrine to Mao is acceptable can be made for the Japanese shrine. To then equate Mao with Abraham Lincoln is the height of absurdity. Maybe you can throw in Jesus next time. I'm sorry that your appeals to "common sense" (whcih just means you have no argument) do not sway me. The fact is that the Chinese are doing almost the exact thing they are protesting, which is certainly ironic. That doesn't mean that the Japanese are right to enshrine war criminals, only rhat the Chinese are hypocrites to complain about it.
I've debunked your pity logic many times, to which you haven't come up with any answer. So, you don't admit you are a Taiwan independent activist--even if you won't admit you have your inherent bias toward China? It's not personal attack. It's just who you are, fair and square.
They were 'acts committed by individuals' in the same way Unit 731 was the individual act of Shiro Ishii. The particulars were up to individuals but they were operating under state apparatuses and organizations who supervised their work. Ilse Koch's little lampshades were a private thing, but the deaths to get them were through state apparatuses. Certanly they were not on the scale of Japanese bio attacks, but then the Japanese weren't using 'showers' filled with Zyklon B, either. They were both horrific means to the same ends. They are both methods to ease the difficulty of mass exterminations, often at the cost of great additional suffering by the innocent victims.
Wait a minute here, are you accusing Mao doing exact same thing as Japanese troops did to Chinese civilians? Including tesing bio weapons on Chinese civilians and POWs, training soldiers in killing skills on chinese civilians, training dogs to attack Chinese civilians, systematically raping Chinese women, cutting their organs loose, and cooked and ate them, cutting through pregnent women's wombs and took out unborn children alive, and chopped them into pieces?!!! Where are the pro-life bunch here? I want to keep the D & D civil, but WTF garbage are you spreading here?!!!! If you are late to the discussion, catch up with other posts first before you open your ignorant mouth. Chinese had no problem Japanese people visiting their Shrine. But Chinese have problem that Japanese right wings moved those 14 executed war criminals into that Shrine, and government officials visiting them OFFICILALLY. It's not one single incident, but it goes with numerous times lying about history and denial of war crimes. It just makes me laugh, how hard you are trying to downplay Japanese war crime just out of simple hatred. I am not comparing to Lincoln to Mao, i am comparing some Chinese' respect towards Mao to the similar feelings from some Americans towards Lincoln. Oh, all of a sudden, your precious feelings are hurt. But hey, you are free to insult chinese lost lives all you want. It's a free country and free board. WTF!
i'm not making light of anything!!! just using the opportunity to throw out a line from napoleon dynamite. i have absolutely no incentive or reason to defend or make light of japanese war crimes. please don't take me, yourself or this message board that seriously.
Review your own posts, ok? I did not bring up Holocaust. You DID. I said 30 million Chinese lost lives during that war. You brought out wikipedia, and I cited the same page for you. I never compared anything with Holocaust. Can we get over it now? Of course, Peral Habour and boming of London are no war crimes. I didn't call the battles in Shanghai and Tai Er Zhuang or many other places war crimes. Don't just assume. I call testing biological weapons on civilians, systematically killing and raping, killing competition for fun other most disgusting actions as WAR CRIMES. What's your beef with that? I just don't get it.
Moreover, who denied Mao did terrible things to Chinese people here? Please quote. Your logic is really funny. Mao did terrible things to Chinese, so Chinese should just shut up about Japanese war crimes? Why don't you go ahead to tell Jewish people that they should stop talking about Holocause because they did bad things to Palestines? Where were you in those threads? Applying your silly logic, if you are not a Saint, you should have no complaint to be robbed, beated up, and slaughted. According to the Bible, there is no righteous man. So everyone should be ready to be slaughted, rightfully. Well, it does serve your war-supporting view.
Hello! The original reason I posted was in response to someone's comparison of 30 million to 6 million Jews implying that the Holocaust was nothing compared to what happened to the Chinese. That's ridiculous. The Holocaust is the most evil thing ever done in the history of humanity. There is no comparison. And trust me, I'm not any kind of pro-Israeli nut or anything.
Take the 14 class A criminals out of the shrine and stop claiming Japanese invasion of Asian countries was an effort to save them from western imperialism. I have no problem with German's mourning their dead soldiers as long as they don't bow in front of Hitler's tomb and teach their kids that holocaust was an effort of cleanse the disgrace of human kind. Is that fair? I am sure if Bush administration put some pressure on Japanese government, all this can be done. But unfortunately, this administration has given up moral standard to satisfy immediate need, a tool of dealing with North Koreans and containing Chinese. When will the lesson be learned? Being short-sighted always hurt you in the future. Supporting Sadam in the 80's created the monstor. Supporting OBL in his fight against Soviet Unions planted the seed of 9/11. Turning a blind eye towards the new Nazism rising in Japan will only cause big trouble in the future.
So, 1 Jew life > 6 Chinese lives? That is only conclusion one can draw from what you said above. Aren't all men created equal any more? One has to be insane to imply Holocaust was nothing. But caliming the Holocaust was THE most evil thing in the history, in the face of hard numbers, is equally insane, if not more.
This whole issue about trying to compare atrocities and wrong-doings and victimhood is pretty distasteful and silly. Both the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese killed vast numbers of people, both in "conventional" and "non-conventional" ways. No innocent victims are more or less deserving of "sympathy" than any other. The Holocaust itself was certainly a great evil in the history of humanity but I doubt it would matter much on the individual level if the level of suffering is the same. Is it really worse on an individual level if you were a Jew experimented on by the Nazis or a Chinese by the Japanese? Saying that the 6 million Jews is nothing compared to the 30 million Jews killed is incorrect but then again I have seen no one make this claim. But saying that 30 million Chinese is "no comparison" to the 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust is also incorrect. As SamFisher has suggested, this end this silly and distasteful line of debate.
What am I talking about? Japanese do not admit the war they waged on other Asian coutries was evil. They claim that it was an effort to save Asia from Western Imperialism. That is the teaching in this shrine we are talking about, and that is the teaching of their history books used in high schools over there. If killing 30 million innocent lives was deemed as an effort to save them, what is stopping Japanese from "saving" others in the future? If one day, German leaders and citizens start worshiping Hitler and teaching their kids that the Holocaust was an effort to "save" the Jews, wouldn't you call that the new Nazism? How is what Japanese are doing different from that? The dangerous thing is not only some right wing Japanese fanatics, but also the prime minister and a good number of parliament members, are going to the shrine where the 14 class A criminals, the Japanese equavelent of Hilter, are worshiped. If bending their knees in front of Hitler equavelents doesn't bother you, I don't know what else I can say.
How do you know that Taiwanese don't protest? There have been organized Taiwanese groups protesting shine visits every time and some of them even go to Japan to protest. And you conveniently forget that Koreans protest these shrine visits, didn't you? Mao didn't invade other countries like the Japanese did and Mao didn't kill 30 million lives of other countries. What he did to Chinese, good and bad, will be judged by Chinese. BTW, about a dozen of American presidents can be linked to slavery and native indian massacres. Every leader has the dark side. It is up to the Chinese to judge their leaders, as it is up to Americans to judge theirs. But if a leader caused suffering of people from other countries, then it is not a domestic issue any more. I don't think Mao falls in that category.
I am all for it, as long as we face history honestly. Germen came clean. Japanese did not. Forgive but not forget, remember the mistakes in the past or one will repeat them in the future. The thing is very simple: remove the 14 class A criminals and then we can all be cool with it. How hard is that? The fact that Japanese refuse to do so says a lot to make me doubt whether they are really cool now.
That is equivelent to saying the trial of Sadam would have more credibility if Bush senior and Rumsfield were also in the court room as they armed Iraqi armies and give them chemical weapons in the mid 1980's. Let's stick to the point and not drag a seperate thing into the discussion.
