Deckard, That question was not directed at you. Why is it OK for him to ask if I am Chinese and it became offensive to you that I ask him if he or his love one is a Jewish or Japanese decendent?
Since you are afraid that your background will caused other to see your response with tanted glass. I could only conclude that there is a fair chance that you or your love one is a Jewish or Japanese decendent or a decendent of a nationality that have a horse in this race.
Sishir, this is one of the best posts in this long thread, very logical and well-organized. But usually, you won't get your questions answered. No matter what evidence or first-hand experience you provide, some will just tell you, well, that's your personal experience. Then, they will just give you that strong "I don't think" or "I think" to dismiss all your reasoning.
When did he ask you that? I'm not saying he didn't, but I don't recall it. I've assumed several folks in this debate are either Chinese, of Chinese ethnic origin, immigrants from China, and the like. In some cases, it's come out from the posters themselves over the course of long association here on the BBS. Some have freely said they were. Some post in a style that is similar to posts from openly Chinese speaking members. And I can't recall ever asking anyone I thought to have that background whether they were any of those things. That's not what I'm objecting to. I've made no secret of being a native Texan and Houstonian, living in Austin for over 25 years, middle-aged (as painful as it is to use the term), and on different occasions have mentioned a Scotch/Irish/English background, with ancestors who fought in the Texas revolution. I've also traveled around the world, seen many, many places and cultures, and have had a lifelong interest in history. I can say that, and whether someone choses to believe it, I leave to them. In my opinion, that's not the same as attempting to use a person's ethnic and/or religious background to "pigeon-hole" that person's thoughts on an issue... that they have some "agenda" because of it. Sometimes, I think it is a cultural difference. In the States, at least from where I sit, we don't place nearly the same weight on the ethnic/religious background of someone as an indication of that person's political beliefs. There are attempts to do so. Blacks and Hispanics are often seen as Democrats. That is a false assumption as well. While many, in fact a majority may have the good sense to be Democrats , I can tell you that I have known, and know, many of both backgrounds who are in fact Republicans (or neither). That's not the way ethnic (primarily, in this case), or religious backgrounds have been used here, and in other, similar threads. If someone mentions, at some point, that they are of Taiwan, or Japanese descent, you can almost hear the, "Ah HA!!," as the person's opinions are dismissed as "tainted," by association. And it doesn't have to be a person who has said that in the past who gets the "treatment." NewYorker, engaging in this debate, was asked on more than one occasion the question you asked him, the implication being that only someone with that background would have that much interest in the topic, and have that point of view. I really find that offensive. In my mind, it's no different from a right-wing Bush supporter making their false and insulting accusations that one has to be unpatriotic, and not support our military, if they happen to be liberal and/or Democratic, and disagree with the current idiotic Administration. And I wasn't kidding earlier that Sam was accused of being a CIA agent because he's traveled widely, visited China and Tibet, and holds strong opinions about certain topics relating to China. Bizarre, but true. To me, that is paranoia, pure and simple. Or maybe the poster was stoned. That would explain a lot! Hope this came out the way I intended it to. Keep D&D Civil.
I'll provide MY first-hand experience. In my travels through Japan, just about everyone I met were deeply remorseful about Japan's actions during the War. Some would try to say "we were so foolish back then", or "it was a terrible time", but most of the time, they would express deep deep sympathy for the suffering of Chinese people and were shocked how terrible the things their ancesters did were. I can tell you right now that these ultranationalists the Chinese posters, including Sishir, keep bringing up are a very small minority. But the longer Japan is hated and isolated thru animosity, the more powerful these forces become, because the Japanese people start to see themselves as the victimized instead of being victimizers. In my travels through China, and in my countless encounters with Chinese people (I'm pretty active in various Chinese organizations around Houston), it is the very very very rare exception where I find a Chinese who can see this side of Japan and understand the need to promote it through positive constructive friendship instead of fingerpointing. This same observation will explain why most of the Chinese on this thread will ignore this post too. Sishir's earlier point of most of Asia being on the side of Japan wrt to the Shrine issue has no bearing on who's more right and who's more wrong. It is simply a reflection of history, Japan being the empire in WW2 that invaded China, Korea, and SE Asia (who of course were a lot "happier" under their respective European colonial administrations). This resentment has to do with HISTORY, and not with right or wrong. This same colonial/imperialist history explains why most Taiwanese people dislike China (I exclude here the mainlander descendents like Sishir), and why we generally support Japan. Does that make all Chinese actions that anger us intrinsically wrong? No, each Chinese action must be evaluated on its own moral merit. It is critical in this discussion to distinguish between resentment stemming from history and the intrinsic morality of an issue. Should Japan be mindful of the diplomatic ramifications of their Shrine visits? Yes. And I think they already devote a great deal of consideration to it. But are they intrinsically wrong in honoring their dead patriots? I think not. And it's time China, and the Chinese posters on this board, started waking up to that fact. Of course, I type this wth the full knowledge of the futility of this post. I ain't gonna any of your minds. But hey, didn't someone mention something about intellectual masturbation?
"Harass", "intimidate", and such loaded words make as much sense on Japan's disputes with its various rivals as in the case of China's disputes with its maritime neighbours, specifically with regards to Spratly Islands. Again, you bring up India and Tibet, please refer to my response to your post earlier. As far as Taiwan is concerned, the civil war in China started in mid-1940s between the two factions of Chinese parties/forces has never officially ended. No truce has been signed or agreed upon. Both Taiwan and PRC have been aggressive towards each other at times, although the reality paints a far different picture from what many ignorant Americans like you realized. No need to cry a river there. I had initially no interest to reply to you but this one particular statement caught my eye since it has to do with some serious number: "By the way, 16 Japanese lost their lives." That's definitely news to me. Can you provide a link?
Taiwan's been aggressive toward China????? Explain to me how that works again? Is the fact that we're independent and hold our own elections considered aggression? Cuz last I checked, Taiwan's armies haven't invaded anyone in 50 years... Why is that you can dismiss China's threats and military buildup toward Taiwan with a wave of your hand like that?!?!?! WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY? Do you not see that we're people too?
Amongst all the spinning, let's not lost sight on important facts. Yes, no all Japanese are radical right wingers. In fact, I believe most Japanese are peaceful and have basic recognition of war-time atrocities. In fact, when Taiwanese former compfort-women decided to sue Japanese government in Japanese court, they got a lot of civil support. However, there are right-wing politicians, and there are radical right-wing sectors in Japan. It is under this background that make official shrine visit a dangeous political move. And under this background that possibility of Abe - who flat out deny those are war criminals - being voted in as next PM that makes Asian countries Wary. So, yes, China protests the shrine visit, along with other Asian nations., and is wary of the radical right wing element in Japanese society. However, protesting the shrine visit doesn't mean China, along with other Asian nations, are pushing Japan to the right wing. Nor does recognition of war-time atrocities deprive Japan and Jaanese of national pride. China, in general, are still on very good terms with Japan. And there are efforts to "promote friendship" as you put it from the both sides. It is your, I repeat, YOUR moral judgement that shrine visit has put enough consideration to the feelings around Asia and political reality in Japan. And it is YOUR moral judgement that hororing war criminals is nothing but honoring their dead patriots. Let's just highlight that. The original purpose of this thread is to let people have their own judgement. Oh, please don't bring Taiwan into this. I know you would like to.
I think rblh was talking about this post. It was more questioning than asking though. I know what you are talking about here. It's funny how people are perceived on the internet. My friend, who is a Japanese American, happened to be around yesterday when I was reading this thread. She spent some time with me to read the whole thread together (by the way, she's not a basketball fan and has never read this board before). After we were done, she kept saying that NewYorker must be of Taiwanese descendant. She asked me what I thought. I just said I didn't know and I didn't care. Anyway, we had a little discussion on this topic afterwards. If anyone is interested in the opinion of a Japanese American, the following is a brief summary of her takes. She is definitely against the revisionist textbook and the lack of a sincere and formal apology on the part of the Japanese Government. But she does not have an opinion on the shrine visits of the Japanese pm (or not yet). She explains that since she was born and raised in the US, she doesn't understand the symbolic signficance of the visits to the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese. So she'd rather hold her judgement until she has educated herself more on the issue and the historical background first. I think it's the right attitude.
Calm down, Lil. I am not talking about any pure political events with regard to the cross-Strait relation. To start with, ROC was eager to fight PRC in the Korean War, only to be prohibited by, I believe, by the U.S. ROC's paramount leader Chiang Kai-shek never renounced his vow to re-take the Mainland. Low level armed confrontations and hostilities from both sides took place in the early split. Espionage activities by ROC on Mainland's strategic targets have never stopped. Not long ago, some flamboyant ROC official threatened to blow up the Three Gorge Dam in Southwestern China. There are no lack of hawkish military figures in Taiwan who are itching to try their newly acquired toys on the Mainland. However, like I said, these events don't quite reflect the reality of a much bigger picture in the current state. To dismiss their existence though is quite naiive IMO.
Check wikipedia.... I'm just saying man, you have to explain away a lot of China's relations to make it more peaceful then Japan in the last 60 years. I mean, if you really believe that...then that's what you believe. Seems to me that the evidence is quite clear that China is now the far more aggressive nation. I don't know why that's so offensive to you either. Anyway, no one could invade China again, China is way too strong militarily now. My only point is that China shouldn't be viewing it's neighbors as a threat....it's the other way around.
So you are saying, that China did the RIGHT thing to build up a strong military, that no one could invade China again? This is a dynamic world, with US constantly posing hostility towards Chinese, with Japan building up military for the past 20 some years and continuously denying past war crimes, Chinese have to be watchful, and continue their military build up, to make sure that day never comes again. Or, I totally understood you wrong, that you are actually regretting that no one can invade China now?
Yeah, that's where my mirror comment comes from. Seriously, is it worse to ask someone of their background in an attempt to understand where he comes from than to assume someone is Chinese because he disagrees with one's opinion and his English is percieved bad by the said one? Is it worse to ask where someone comes from than to dismiss another group as "nationalists", "defensive", "bad English" etc etc in debating the arguments? Ironically based exactly on ethnics? Is it worse than to put it under "cultural" while there is really nothing cultural about it? But I guess it's all hard to see without mirror.
Are you gonna tell me where you got "16 Japanese lost their lives" in the confrontation in the latest Dokdo dispute with SK?
rblh was insulted, so I don't blame him for getting ticked off. I guess I scanned over that. I think the comment was out of line. That was great hearing a perspective from your girlfriend. She sounds pretty cool, and very intelligent. You're a lucky guy! Keep D&D Civil.
No, I'm saying that China built up a big military, no one can seriously invade it now, so why is China crying about Japan?
