Breathe man...breathe....chill.....it's just a discussion board. You're usually not this crazy....I'm not even sure what you're talking about.
LOL, you do realize that english should be spelled English? . Why is your English bad? Are you or your love one a Jewish or Japanese decendent? I am a naturalized US citizen of Chinese descendent, but my poor English is mostly a result of Houston's HISD (Fondren & Westbury) low standard than anything else.
Let's walk everyone through it once again! I: Japan has been a peaceful nation for 60 years.... Wolf Pack: Peaceful! No way - that have been very aggressive I: Well, definitely more peaceful then the Chinese Wolkpack: What - prove it! I: Ok, Tibet? India? Vietnam? Korea? Spratley's? Taiwan? Wolfpack: YOu hate China! Whahhhhhhhhhhh! You love Japan. You must be Japanese. You are a cowboy American! You are not reasonable!!! Whaaaaaahhhhhhhhaaaaaaa!
This is why I asked you the question whether you understand why Chinese posters and others were so offended by this and I don't believe you do. Further I don't think you understand why it is in the Japanese interest to change their policy. One thing I've noticed about your posts on the subject matter is that you tend to place the onus on the PRC to make nice with Japan for the good of Asian relations when if anything its the other way around.The PRC isn't the one being isolated or marginalized in Asia over this its Japan. Yes it is true that other Asian countries are very uneasy about the PRC's military buildup. The one thing that makes them more uneasy is Japanese militarization. Japan's relations with its neighbors aren't nearly as good as they once where and in terms of support in Asia the PRC is winning. South Korea's relations with the PRC are probably better than they are with Japan at the same time the ASEAN nations are more likely to look to the PRC in terms of geo-political interests than Japan. This is due to a lot of reasons but at a time when Japan could be improving its image the fact that the Japanese PM is rubbing other Asian nations by visiting the shrines and engaging in revisionist history is in no way helping its cause. So Prime Minister's official visits to Yasukuni and revisionist history are as offensive to Chinese and other Asians as if the Germany Chancellor made officials visits to the Nazi graves and denied the Holocaust. ( I don't suppose you've been telling Jews they shouldn't be so sensitive.) At the sayme time it isn't the PRC that is suffering a diplomatic backlash over this issue it is Japan's and if Japan wishes to be a trusted member of the Asian community countries they will need to show the rest of Asia that they don't honor their militaristic past and are honest about their history.
I said before this is a separate issue yet you seem more than eager to take the bait and further complicate the issue. If you want to debate Tibet start a separate thread.
Let me ask you something.... Do you think Asia is really at this point afraid of Japan more then China? And.... Do you think that some of the reaction against the Japanese shrine visit from China and Korea stem from at least in part from the latent hatred toward Japanese? What am I getting at...I'm just saying...it seems to me...purely as an outsider - that there's something more going on here thAn anger about a shrine visit. The way I came in here was pretty innocent and I got battened down pretty hard. It's more then being offended....it's being offended by someone they hate that's getting these guys livid. I think these guys truly harbor some hate for the Japanese they aren't willing to admit to....
Why did Japan send navy vessels to Dokdo island to intimidate Korea? Why did Japanese patrol boats shot Taiwanese fishing vessels near the Diaoyu island? Why Japan keeps harassing Russia over Kuril Island? Peaceful as Switzerland? Do you just want to fool yourself?
What's ironic is that Japan has been an economic powerhouse for decades. True, she has had some relatively hard times the last several years, but overall has done extremely well. She should have solid relations with the developing countries there in the region. China is clearly her main economic rival, has it's eyes on some territorial areas that are claimed by several nations, in at least one case, yet Japan seems to be losing the "hearts and minds," of most of the region's countries to China. That is my impression, anyway. Why? In large part, it is because of China's clever economic policies and enormous market to offer for their export industries. Yet Japan has to import nearly everything. You would think that Japan would be assiduous about courting those countries. What's wrong with this picture? Bad public relations regarding an issue most Americans know nothing about, and would find difficult to understand at a glance... the shrine visits, the altered history, and the increasing perception that Japan is moving away from decades of non-agression towards it's neighbors by, you guessed it, the stupid shrine visits. Japan needs to wake up and smell the coffee. I think the reaction to those visits, the altered histories, and what is perceived as a military buildup by Japan, which I think is way off base... Japan has a small military and small offensive capabilities for a country as advanced as she is, and with her population and potential adversaries, is just stupid policy for Japan, and causing her real problems in East Asia. It would help enormously if she would put the truth in her history books, move the 14 guys to a separate cemetary where right-wing wackos can worship them to their hearts content, and make a very big deal, which only those of the region will really get, of making an open and sincere apology for her actions in the 1930's and in WWII. In my opinion. Keep D&D Civil.
I for one are more puzzled on why someone that calls himself an outsider would go to such great length to marginalized the shrine visit and history alteration. Once again, are you or your love one a Jewish or Japanese descendent?
I can tell you from first hand experience in Asia yes. While many countries have disputes and are uneasy regarding the PRC some of them like Singapore are hitching their futures on the PRC. Countries like Malaysia and Vietnam even while they have disputes with the PRC still look to the PRC as a counterbalance to the US. OTOH many countries are very uneasy about Japanese militarization because Japan hasn't convinced people that they have put their aggressive past behind them. So even while there have been times when other Asian countries loved Japan's money there has always been a distrust of the Japanese since it never seemed like they put their militaristic past behind them. This is what I mean that you don't quite understand. Of course there is hate for the Japanese but its not an irrational hate that came out of nowhere. You might as well ask why some Jews still hate the Germans or why some African Americans hate whites. This is a hatred that came about from things like the Rape of Nanking, the almost 40 year brutal occupation of Korea, women from Siberia to Java being forced to be comfort women and countless other events. This isn't just people hating because they like to hate. This is a hatred born from the knowledge that Japanese considered themselves divine and entitled to use and abuse every one they conquered with no thought of a common humanity. This is about the fact that many in Japan still feel that way and that is represented by the Yasukuni Shrine, the revisionist museum that's part of it and their revisionist textbooks. And FYI this attitude doesn't just extend to other Asians. There are popular Japanese novels and Manga that put forward a revisionist vision of WWII where Japan defeats the US. One manga presented an image of Japanese soldiers invading San Francisco and forcing US women to be comfort women. My uncle a few years back visiting Japan brought back a video game that had Japanese Zeroes shooting down American P51's. If someone in Germany had produced a video game of Luftwaffe shooting down RAF Spitfires and American B17's there would be a huge outcry over that. Its all of these things that make people uneasy about the official visits to the shrine and revisionist history and the sooner the Japanese address those the better they will be for it.
I'm glad you understand that and to stress again I don't hate the Japanese personally, think they have a right to visit the shrine since its their country but I can understand while others do hate the Japanese. While they have the right to do what they want as long as its peaceful the Japanese would be much better off if they could put all of this behind them and do as you suggest.
Why Did Korea decide to set-up coast guard on the Island and then fire upon Japanese vessels? By the way, 16 Japanese lost their lives. Not a single Korean did in the incidents. With Diaoyu Island - there is no evidence that the fishing vessels were actually "shot" and hit....no casualties reported. As for the Kuril Islands...why do you say Japan is harassing Russia? What do you mean by harass? My understanding is that Japan only wants the lower four islands - ones that are far closer to the Japanese mainland then the Russian mainland. So again, in neither of these cases has Japan actually threatned war or seriously been belligerent. Firing across the bow of some Taiwanese fishing vessels is the extent is has gone.....and you bring that up to comparison with China's aggression against India, Taiwan, and Tibet? It makes no sense wnes....i just can't see that being equated.
I just took a peek at the Holocaust cartoon thread and it does look like you, New Yorker, are also criticizing Cohen and others regarding sensitivity.
SC, I admire your patience in explaining and rationalizing with NewYorker. Guys like Lil and StupidMoniker have clearly defined objectives, based upon which they reasoned relatively well, although I strongly disagree with most of their positions. NewYorker, on the other hand, has been very inconsistent and self-contradictory, morally and logically, in many of his posts. Whether he's ignorant (I kinda of doubt that) or else, I can only conclude he's just trying to be an ass. It may only be possible to mess with him than to debate with him.
Ok, so I'm not sure people would object to much to a video game with people playing the Germans....I mean, I think such games exist - anyway, that's beyond the point. Japan has it's nationalist population like every other country. We have our wacko neocons...China has it's wackos who are in power right now, Korea has it's nationalists...so on and so forth. But we've established there is some latent hate for Japan because of the past that gets aggrivated by these shrine visits. So it's not a rationale issue but more of an emotional one. Ok, So Japan has these shrine visits which piss a lot of people off because of all the bad things Japan has done and probably some latent racism - because less face it, I hear a lot of racism between Koreans and Japanese and Chinese and Japanese. So it's there. So in the end, what's the consequence - it's a PR image thing for Japan. You say they need to show extra humility to counter the past hate they've generated. But is that realistic? You see, I think....that doing that only creates resentment in the Japanese people. A kid born today in Japan only learns how bad his country is...and what does he do - he looks for a way to find pride in it. So he embraces revisionist history and does things like visit a shrine. What I'm saying is that the posters on this board fail to realize that if you deny the Japanese their nationalism and a pride in their culture and history, they will find a way to get it. Their past is their past. It's an illusion to think aggression is their culture. They've shown it not to be...no more then any other country in the world. In 40 years, all the men and those that committed these atrocities will have been dead. So will all those who served witness to these atrocities. I'm just saying, if I were Chinese, i would let it slide....why care....in the end, it's immaterial.
Why do I have an interest in it? Why on earth do some of you think that because someone disagrees with you on these issues that they have to have some sort of "hidden agenda?" Frankly, I find that attitude offensive. Some people do have "agendas." Most people here are posting just because they find a topic to be of interest. It doesn't mean they are "a Jewish or Japanese descendent," or the like, just because they disagree with you. And if they disagree strongly, it could be that they just have strong opinions. And if they are accused in the way you and others are accusing in this fashion (Sam was once accused of being a CIA agent!! Freakin' Sam, who couldn't spy his way out of a costume shop!), then they are very likely to respond even stronger. It's human nature. Keep D&D Civil.
That's why I'll never reveal my background on here...once you do that, everything you say will be colored by it. But you know, you can't expect people to transcend that....it's their nature...their fears in control of them. I have to say, I'm very impressed with this Sishir Chang character....seems to be one who doesn't have that complex...I tip my hat to you - for being able to examine with a level of detachment....truly a sign of a more self-actualized and secure self. Other posters on here would be wise to pay attention to your example...
I know I can count on you Deckard. But for your "it could be that they just have strong opinions" bit, even NewYorker himself won't agree with. BTW, I have pretty good idea that rblh guessed wrong.
