Japanese War shrine visit thread

LOL at NewYorker's post.

Glad to see you taking a light-hearted approach.

As with all futile things, if what you do won't have any impact on your audience, heck have a little bit of fun!

I agree with Ottomaton and Deckard and NewYorker and Sishar, and even Michecon, seeing both sides of the issue is the key here. Once you see where the disagreement lies, I think you'll also realize it's really not that big a deal. Strangely, it is the disagreements we don't understand, that leads to furious anger.

 

Ugh, I can't believe you're playing the blame the victim game. I don't understand why this thread has gone to a china-bashing fest when the issues isn't about china, it's about japan. China's isn't the only country that suffered and arguably not even the most vocal against Japanese's handling of their own history. I would say Korea is since they were colonialized and had their culture practically stripped away.

It has been reminded several times how this is a sensitive issue for many people, yet a handful a posters continue to trivialize and politicize it. It's a horrible thing that happened in history, moreso than any of us can imagine, and none of us can understand what it's like to survive such an ordeal and then see nobody fully take responsiblity for what happened.

While I really didn't want to comment to this thread in hopes it would just die out, I want to appeal to the more level headed readers how this issue really stands. It's not like these visits have called major embargoes or military actions, but it's has stalled some diplomatic sessions. The visits are symbolic to both sides, to the Japanese PM, he's trying to gain some favor from the right-wingers in his govt, and to the rest of Asia, esp those directly involved, it's a slap in the face to all the half-ass apologies Japan has given and just reenforces their suspicions that Japan is whitewashing its own history.

Keep in mind the US was only with war in Japan for a few years while parts of asia had been suffering under Japan since the turn of the century. Japan's role in that particular slice of history is equivalent to the Holocaust, yet largely ignored by the rest of the world. Therefore, like the Holocaust, come the senstivies involved, and respect neccessary, no matter how you feel about the people affected. And to be fair, the majority Japanese have an idea of their history with their neighbors, and would love nothing more than to close the wounds have better relationships, yet unfortunately get taken a backseat to certain Japanese leaders who are rallying up whatever reasons and excuses for their stance in the changing power balance in Asia.

 

If they really want to mend the relationships with neighboring countries, they can. But they are gonna vote in Abe, a even more extrem right wring, as the next PM.

 

LOL ... I don't know if life imitates D&D or the other way around. This article may let you decide. Pay close attention to what the Japanese ultra-nationalists said and what have been posted in this thread.

I used to think the Haysian-SamFishery types are the pro-Japa and anti-Chinese/Korean crowd, but the new wave of NewYorkerish posters exceed my wildest imagination. I don't have much time to debate today, may do some later tonight. Anyway, this report is an alarming reminder to us why the "peaceful Japa" imagery is just a hallucination.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/ca47d918-3625-11db-b249-0000779e2340.html

Wave of ‘dangerous’ nationalism sweeps Japan

By David Pilling

Published: August 28 2006 02:16 | Last updated: August 28 2006 02:16

Koichi Kato is understandably upset.

Earlier this month, a man armed with a knife and copious supplies of kerosene burnt down Mr Kato’s family home in Yamagata prefecture and then tried to commit seppuku, or ritual suicide, on the premises. Only by chance was Mr Kato’s 97-year-old mother out for a stroll.

The attack on Mr Kato’s home by a suspected right-wing fanatic followed repeated warnings by the veteran Liberal Democratic party politician against the wisdom of prime ministerial visits to the Yasukuni shrine. Yasukuni is the Shinto shrine that honours 2.5m war dead, as well as a handful of leaders including Hideki Tojo, the wartime prime minister convicted of war crimes by the Tokyo tribunal. Visits by Junichiro Koizumi, prime minister, have angered China and South Korea, which say Japan is refusing to face up to its wartime past.

Although the assailant, still recovering from burns and slashes to his stomach and wrists, has not yet spoken, police are working on the assumption that he was outraged by the suggestion of boycotting Japan’s most treasured nationalist symbol.

In spite of the advice from Mr Kato, once Mr Koizumi’s righthand man, the prime minister visited the shrine on August 15, the anniversary of Japan’s wartime surrender and the most offensive date for the country’s former adversaries.

For Mr Kato, this series of events is a sign that Japan is lurching towards unhealthy nationalism. “What I am concerned about is the very strong anti-Chinese, anti-Korean and sometimes anti-American nationalism that is prevailing in Japan.”

He blames politicians, including Shinzo Abe, for reopening the debate about whether Japan fought a just war in the 1930s and 1940s and whether it was forced into conflict by American trickery. “This kind of nationalism is very hard to calm down once leaders ignite it. This is a dangerous nationalism. Politicians should not try to use it.”

Things could get worse, Mr Kato says, if, as is almost universally expected, Mr Abe succeeds Mr Koizumi as prime minister next month. “Koizumi-san admitted that Tojo and others were war criminals,” he says. “But Abe does not accept that notion.”

Mr Abe, he argues, is very influenced by the thinking of his grandfather, Nobusuke Kishi, who became a postwar prime minister after being arrested, but never convicted, on suspicion of being a war criminal.

Mr Abe’s advisers say the would-be prime minister is merely trying to draw a line under six decades of “self-flagellation” under which, they say, schools have taught successive generations that Japan was uniquely wicked in the war. Mr Abe, they say, wants to restore a “healthy nationalism” in which people are proud of their country’s culture and achievements.

He also wants to clarify Japan’s right to defend itself, by changing the pacifist constitution banning a Japanese military and by spelling out Japan’s right – abandoned for half a century – to participate in collective self-defence.

As things stand, the US is pledged to defend Japan if it comes under attack but if the US is attacked in the region, Japan cannot come to its aid. Hisahiko Okazaki, an adviser to Mr Abe, says: “There’s good nationalism and bad nationalism. If you raise the flag and sing the national anthem, that’s good nationalism. But if you tear down the flag of another nation, that’s bad nationalism.” Mr Abe is promoting the good kind, he says.

However, Mr Kato says politicians are leading the nation into unhealthy territory, actively promoting a historical amnesia.

He also blames books and films for encouraging such sentiments, adding that the man who burnt down his home was believed to have been reading a rightwing comic before the attack.

Masahiko Fujiwara, author of the recent blockbuster A Nation’s Dignity, and a poster boy for Japanese conservatives, says: “The concept of an A-class criminal doesn’t mean anything, because winners don’t have the right to judge the losers, not just in Tokyo but also in Nuremburg.

“If Tojo was an A-class criminal, then so was Roosevelt, Churchill, Stalin, Mao and Truman, who bombed us with atomic bombs.”

Mr Kato regards such views as dangerous, saying that Japan should face up to what he considers its prewar arrogance and colonialist ambitions. “Some people want to erase all these past mistakes.”

 

Well, pretty much expect my little post got lost in the piles of trash and bullsh1t.

I don't feel the need to post any more facts, because they will just go unreplied to the "land of the free and the home of the brave," when of course, unable to make a reply to them.

But what I do find interesting is how "stupid" the Chinese posters here are. Seriously, even after being called dogs as well as of course, being called defensive after being called dogs, none of you have yet squealed to the mods.

Seriously, if some of you just squealed like Deckard or lil' SammyFisher, Clutch might actually be force to give a slight warning. Damn you are a slow bunch.

 

I know I am one of the "stupid" and "slow" Chinese posters you are referring to. Sure I am offended by all the blatant and insinuated insults directed at people like me, but you got to live with what the limitations are. Just because Deckard et al once reacted berserkly to what they perceived D&D taboos doesn't mean I need to stoop to that level.

 

I understand how you feel, but I believe I'm being smarter not "stupid".

1. I believe it's best to reason, not incite. I don't think we need to stoop to those levels. In fact Sam would be a welcomed sight compared to Lil and NewYorker. At least Sam has some reasoning capabilities.
2. The anti-China bias on the board, is just that. I've pointed that out in another thread. But I don't take it too seriously. It's an American Sports BBS after all.
3. I take silence as cognance. I do believe people's ability to see through things after being presented with facts and logic. They may not admit to it. But that's fine.
4. I believe I'm far more smarter and knowledgable than most of these who uses insults. So, although I do feel insulted, I won't be bothered too much knowing my superioty.

 

The PM visited the shrine on the day of surrender, not the day of a victory or on the anniversary of a massacre. It's on the day of surrender.

Personally, if I was the Japanese PM, I'd visit the shrine just to show that other nations shouldn't interfere with my internal affairs and shouldn't control what I do in my own nation. Imagine people telling asian leaders where they can go!

 

It's people like the ones in the article that disgraces the victims who live all over Asia, not just Chinese. Lets just forget all the comfort women, human test subjects, colonization, and the millions of lives lost because it's not a BFD.

It's understandable... The Bush Admin is changing history as we speak, and the American people as a whole aren't giving a ****. Our history books our filled with worthless drivel, and how many people would know the number of presidents assassinated by picking them randomly off the street? Many Americans still think segregation ended hundred years ago.

Just go with the flow....

 

I think you are taking my reply a little to literally. I'm never much good at those sarcasm emoticons.

No no, it was more a jab at certain double standards posters more than anything else. Obviously I did a poor job...

 

Hi, Sam. How you doing? Been leaving me out here sawing away at my own tree limb, haven't you. Probably the intelligent choice, lol. I noticed basso is around today. Maybe he'd like to chime in on war shrines, navies, air forces, and the life of dogs. It really would complete my day!




Keep D&D Civil.

 

Since NewYorker switched side on one of his post, it is only fair that I pick up the slack from the anti-China side and mimic NewYorkers’ half truth and twisted logic to bash the pro China side . . .


It is OK for us Americans to invade other country that based on lies but don’t you Asians especially those Chinese descendents dare to voice yours grievances regarding the Japanese Shrine visit. Don’t you know that those 14 so call an A-class war criminals are really misunderstood war heroes? All these peaceful Japanese are responsible for is the mere raping, torturing and killing of few millions Chinese.

You probably did not know that these wonderful Japanese soldiers did not discriminate during the Nanjing Massacres. They did not just raped woman, they also raped kids and senior citizens. Their motto is old enough too pee is good enough for me. How dare you to complain such an indiscriminate act of love and compassions. You Chinese apologists are just blinded with illogical hatred.

In fact, I think Germany should act more like modern Japan to embrace their war soldiers. They need to embrace Hitler as well as other so call war criminals. Embracing Hitler is not a bad thing; after all it is part of Germany’s history. Furthermore, these soldiers were convicted of war crimes by a foreign tribunal – not by Germany. Germany should bury Hitler and other so call war criminals with other millions of German soldiers. That way the German officials can pay tribute to German soldiers, Hitler and other so call war criminals all at once. I know the Jewish people will never go crazy over this; after all they are just few dozen out of millions. I think German officials should visit Hitler’s grave site just to show that other nations shouldn't interfere with Germany’s internal affairs and shouldn't control what Germany could do in its own country.

Germany’s sincerity regarding their wrongful past transgression does not mean Japan’s apology has to be sincere. You Asians should be glad by the simple fact that Japan is willing to pay lip service.

Too bad Germany is not more like the insincere Japanese. Germany should pay lip service and apologize on one hand and than removed all reference to any inconvenience they have caused the Jewish people from their text books. Hey if Germany want to bury the past and teach their kids lies…well that’s sad, but hey, who would stop them?

I can not give any logic arguments on what China’s wrong doing have anything to do in a thread about Asians’ complain regarding the Japanese PM shrine visit; so why don’t you all just SHUT UP!

 

Unless you've been to a rave, I must have had more fun that you! And I cancelled a trip to the dentist for this...




Keep D&D Civil.

 

Hey Sam, can't bear the love and decide to come out? Look how your flamebait thread turns out.

When will you post some Turkey pictures for us? I assume it's a happy trip since it doesn't change your posting style one bit.

 

In point 4 you say you are smarter then those who use insults...but in point 1 you lay down an insult, as well as in point 2, and point 3, and in point 4. So theres a bit of a paradox there. Are you saying you are smarter then yourself, oh superior one who insults?

Frankly, it's ironic that you can't see the truth yourselves. Do you realize that it is you on the defensive? Do you realize that you can usually tell who is in denial - how? Denial is most represented when someone gets defensive.

Notice that only guys like mikethon, coroner, wnes, real-egg are the ones who are defensive - and the ones who have a personal and emotional stake in this discussion.

You see, when someone starts pointing the holes in your damn...and turns the microscope on your dear precious nation, you begin to defend. It's human nature...it's also a sign of grave weakness and insecurity. YOu wouldn't need to fling insults and cry "ANTI-CHINESE, PRO-JAPANESE" if you were secure where you stood.

No....you're not secure, you're insecure. You can't truly explore what others are saying....because that might undo the delusional reality you've created for yourself and what you've come to belief. Nothing can counter that.

What you don't get is that I don't really care, I'm poking just to see how defensive you'll get. Tomorrow I could argue how dispicable the Japan visit was with a Japanese person and have them call me Anti-Japanese and Pro-Chinese. But you can't see that...you can't see you're being shown up....you're exposing how deeply in denial you truly are.

Think about it - I'm American, and yet you can't hit anything about America - not because there's nothing wrong, but because we're not in denial about our country. We know the truth....don't you think it's time you start accepting the possible truth about yours? At least entertain it? Maybe say...hmmmm, that's an intriguing point...instead of getting all bent out of shape and blowing your top?

You see, I just love getting your goat. I really don't think any country is better then any other. Might makes right. It's all B.S. in the end anyway. My goal is to point out your double standards...that's all I have been doing. It's not about China vs. Japan...that's just a vehicle to bring to light the hypocrisy of your stance.....

Remember - it's the internet...it's not real life!

Peace,
NY'er

 

Hmmm...I'd say you're missing something....I think you need to work on making it more humorous - it sounds too bitter.

 

What's ironic is that my only interest in this thread was been real_egg tried to exaggerate the number of Chinese genocide victims to 30 million and then compare it to the Holocaust, implying that the Chinese suffered more then the Jews. Of course, he doesn't mention that most of those 30 millions didn't die in gas chambers or were put in concentration camps....

If he had been honest and used the correct number (3-4 million) then he might have some credibility...but in trying to exaggerate one claim, he diminished another....and I felt that I had to speak up...which immediate got me thrown into the anti-chinese pro-japanese label...so I ran with it.

Just saying....people speak about half-truths...well, the reason i got into this thread was because of wild half-truths that were being made.

If you end the hyprocrisy, I will disappear!