That is true. Lots of Chinese and Korean died in Korean War, but they got over it, and are getting closer. China sets border disputes with Russia and other former Soviet countried. China set agreements with India and Vietnam. Japan adapted Chinese culture the most, from custome to written language, one would wonder why they are at a low point of their relationships. Simply because Chinese can't get over the past? The answer is obvious.
For visiting a war shrine that enshrine 14 class A war criminals who were as bad as Hitler. For visiting a war shrine where the teaching is "we were saving Asians, not killing them". If you choose not to see it, then you don't see it. But what you say won't do anything to help Japan or to damage China. Japan is being isolated because of this issue. Japan will get hurt most because of it. It is in their best interest to improve relationship with China, Korea and other Asian countries.
This and the other China thread kind of run together. It was more for that thread, when I sought some moderation on the military assessment of Japan. I sort of felt shouted down, and when I offered to prove my points I didn’t see any takers. After that I continued to see reference to ‘second most expensive military in the world’ which if you don’t think too much about it translate as the second strongest military in the world. It seemed to me that the most pro-Chinese posters were intent on mischaracterizing the strength of the Japanese military even if it was not true. That was where the image of the barking came in to my mind. If you approach a bunch of unfamiliar dogs often they will speak loudly and repeatedly and they aren’t particularly intent on listening. For the record I very much understand and oppose the concern about and the shrine visit, in very large part as a result of the discussion here on the topic last year. Before that point I don't believe that it was particularly clear to me that the issue was more than anything else the inclusion of the war criminals. Before that I had viewed it as traditional Japanese honoring of the dead and Chinese opposition to honoring anything having to do with WWII. IIRC, it took me a while even after the discussions here had ended for the situation to really sink in through my calcified opinions. Despite the rancor, these threads sometimes do help with the understanding. Also, for the record, I will admit reevaluating upward my understanding of some aspects of Japanese military strength after looking into some of the specifics of what was said. At the same time I may just be misreading, but I don’t quite hear quite as strong characterizations of the strength of the Japanese military from the pro-China posters. We probably still don’t see eye-to-eye on exactly how militant or heavily armed they are but that’s fine. As long as people will at least listen and are willing to think about what others are saying then I am happy.
I think in general, Americans know about holocaust MUCH more than the atrocities Japanese committed to Asians, not just Chinese. It is regretably so considering US and China were allies in WWII. But the cold war created this void of understanding about this important part of history among americans. It is sad.
Cool, I gather you have far more beef with the stuff going on in the other thread. Let's not derail the current thread. I'll post my opinion over there.
If you trace this thread, you'll see that I am against the shrine visit, I think it is insulting to the Chinese. However, I also don't support any millitaristic actions against Japan just because of the shrine visit because I think it's just a political gimmick and the more attention you throw to it, the more it's gonna be done. A very similar situation is the confederate flag, white southerners claim its part of their culture (though for those that can and willing to read some history will see the fallacy behind that thought) while most African Americans see it as a symbol of racial descrimination. Same thing as the Swastica, while it certaintly is part of history, I doubt people would be very kosher if you're sporting one in public. However, the good thing about the U.S. is that there's freedom to show your ignorance/hatred/predjustice, people can agree to disagree and that's just beautiful. As a generation 1.5 Asian American (born in China at a very young age and moved to the U.S.) I feel a little in between both sides and is trully frustrated by the manner in which both sides are "debating" this subject. For those who are not Chinese, please be a little more understanding of what most Chinese are feeling. The U.S. havent' being occupied by a foreign rule in its history (unless you count the British) and it's not something people of that country can easily forget, especially when there's no apology. When you make your post, pleaes learn to be respectful of peculiarity of foreign cultures. Posts like New Yorkers gives off the vibe of self righteous American Cowboy bravado that intends to see the world only through their own eyes instead of others. For those that are Chinese, such as Canoner's and real_egal, please don't be so defensive of every little thing which was brought up, which will only stray the debate from the main topic. Drop the chip on your shoulders and realize that most Americans are brought up with a different culture and value system that stresses independence and confidence in their own self. They also might not know much about Chinese history besides what's on TV and shown on CNN (and to be fair, how much of American's culture and history does a person living in China know? When I go to visit, most of Chinese impression from American comes either from pop culture films or what's broadcasted in the Chinese news, i.e. there's gonna be misconceptions on both sides). Watching both sides "debate", I get the feeling that neither has stepped in the other's shoes or try to look at things from the other person's point of view. Instead both sides try to harp on bits and pieces they deemed offensive/wrong/dumb/whatever and bash each other to bits over it. What I'm urging is just try to forget every argument you've made for a second, look at argument that's being made against you, see where it's coming from, and think about how you can explain (not teach or preach) your views.
I think Japan already said sorry many times and has done what it can. I think China wants the Japanese leaders to beg for forgiveness, even then it won't be enough. For the record - how do you compare a class A war criminal to a class C war criminal? When you say "as bad as Hitler" what does that mean exactly. Most of the convictions were around agressions, not genocide. Again, by law, Japan did not commit crimes against humanity because they did not sign the Geneva Convention. I think it's time to drop the shrine complaints. Man, I can't stand nationalism.
You sure read a lot from a "vibe" there....what are my eyes? Tell me, oh righterous peacemaker and fighter against self-righteous American Cowboy bravado! YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAW!!!!!!!! By the way, what do you think of people who are offended by the swastika? Do you think that all Hindu and Aryan texts should be stripped of the swastika as to not offend others? Not to mention paintings and other artwork, temples, etc. Of course, those swastikas are the mirror image of the German ones....but hey, most people don't know the difference.
Nationalism is where Japan is going. You should read the article on todays' financial times. Koichi Kato expressed his deep concern with the rising nationalism in Japan. Since you don't see how bad those 14 were, I guess it is pointless to argue with you any more. I am just gonna repeat one thing: Japan is committing a suicide by going down this path. It is gonna to be marginized. It no longer has the influence in the region as it used to, and it is only getting worse because of shrine visits. I think it is Japanese who are nervous about their future. If they choose to be isolated, then nobody can stop them. Even as Chinese and Korean protests such visits, you should see that they are not taking any action desperately. Why should they? Japan is on the track to crash itself.
I think it's a little extreme to equate a shrine visit to national decay...but then again, I am speaking to a nationalist Chinese. I should have been wiser then to debate with a nationalist Chinese realizing they would have an extreme point of view and not open to new ideas. As for rising Japanese Nationalism - I still don't think it's anywhere near Korean or Chinese nationalism. Japan is destined to be relegated to a strong economic power, but never to dominate Asia again. It simply will never have the military power or economic resources. It will be the U.K. of europe - an island that was formerly a colonial empire. No one talks about the U.K.'s transgression...in fact, all the countries are friends of the U.K. now (look at India, now that was a country that got raped). Are the British nationalists? Heck yeah. Do they visit the crown jewels - which were stolen from all over the world? yes. Does anyone complain - not really. So that's Japan's destiny - just another island nation. It will be wealthy and secure, but dependent on outside resources. Who's going to be the big powerful superpower of Asia - oh my, it's China. Who would have guessed it? Wow, do you think Japan is a threat to China? Does anyone on this planet serious think Japan is a threat to China? Is a mouse a threat to an elephant? Should the elephant cry about the mouse constantly? Because that's what Japan is now...and yet you are still crying dear Elephant. Why? Forget about it. It means nothing anymore - it's irrelevant. Even if Japan completely rewrites it's history and claims it liberated China from colonialism and aliens by the way - who cares? China is the rising sun now, not Japan. If I were Chinese, and I saw the Japanese visit the shrine - i'd think to my self, that's right, you better long for the past, because Japan is nothing come the future.
You were kind of boosting Chinese nationalism But one thing you probably didn't notice is. Japanese PM posing with those hard liners, are somehow welcomed by current US adminstration. With US promise to protect Japan, what would US do, if Japan provokes a war with China? Nowadays, average Chinese do not care about ideology, religion, or anything, but private wealthy. China certainly doesn't want a war with anyone, a war with US in any scale would be the worst thing. Chinese are busy developing, and there are so many lost years to catch up with. A war with US will set China back decades. Nobody wants even the risk of that. US administration always sees China as a potential enemy after the former Soviets dissolved itself, but the current admin is furthering distances by numerous hostile labels. This gesture didn't go unnoticed for those Japanese right wings. It's no coincidence the relationship between US and China, Japan and China, were much better in Clinton years, despite the embassy bombing incident.
I get the feeling of "I don't understand you guys and I don't give a damn." Not just that quote, but just the overall tone of your posts.
How do you get that? Amongst all things. Let's not forget CHina and Korea are protesting. A protest is just that - a protest. It's diplomatic. If China wants the Japanese leader to beg, there's far more effective means to that end (guess how critical China is economically to Japan now?) than protesting diplomatically. And you say you are not biased?
Most likely sit back and smoke a cigaR. Using of the old China euphunism "sitting on a mountain watching two tiger fight" cuz ZOMG, ASIA IS TOTALLY THE NEW MIDDLE EAST
Do you really think that the U.S. bombed the Chinese embassy intentionally? C'mon! Let's not forget about China capturing an American AWACs plane of off it's coast a few years back and China's desire to "inspect" the plane. The U.S. doesn't see China as an enemy - an advisory for sure...and to be honest, no one, not India, Japan, Thailand, Austrailia, the Phillipines, Indonesia, or other asian nations want China to become too powerful. It makes sense to hold China in check, especially considering it's government. Frankly, U.S. and China are integral to world economics, both nations are too important to risk going to war with each other. That's why it's not going to happen. China just wants Taiwan, and the U.S. just wants to see China become more democratic before taking over Taiwan. It's just a waiting game. I think the real fear is what China plans to do with all this military buildup eventually? What regional disputes will it bring up - territorial claims from the past, or how will China interfere with other nations? I mean, you talk about Japan and all, but no nation has the ability to wage war in the region right now except for China. And I'd hate to see an Asian arm's race come about. Remember China is the regional superpower. It and it alone can wipe any other asian nation off the map at the touch of a button. I just want you to see that perspective. Japan militarily is a weak nation compared to China, North Korea, Taiwan, South Korea, and India. That's what i find so striking about the whole war shrine issue. It's like the bully still being haunted when he was the little kid and got picked on....
You sure that's not a result of your own sensitivies and past experiences with "American Cowboy Bravado?" I mean, I can't even lasso a steer
Out of boredom with this thread - I've decided to switch sides. Not only is the Shrine visit an affront to the Chinese and all Asian nations who have suffered under the brutal and genocidal Japanese adventures, it's an affront to basic human decency and is tantamount to supporting Nazis. The PM might as well be painting swastika's knowing he is visiting a place that many would find offense considering the number of war criminals and the denial of Japanese atrocities that took place. Clearly this act of Japanese nationalism is an indicator of Japan's intent to revive the only Imperialistic banner and rebuild a military of historic proportion to begin is conquest of asia once again. The Japanese have already established economic and technological superiority over all of Asia, and it's only a matter of time that they begin building weapons of such a high technicl magnitude that not even the U.S. can forsee how powerful Japan will become. With it's traditional problem of a lack of resources, and a population itching to make war - it's in their blood afterall - we must take significant action. Otherwise, we will see the rise of the red sun and the restoration of the Japanese nationalistic frenzy that has already resulted in the genocide of 30 million Chinese - five times that of the Holocaust. By cutting dimplomatic and economic ties with Japan, Japan will get the hint that China means business, and by increasing our hostile stance and calling the Japanese PM an offensive pig...we hope to turn the tide of Sino-Japanese tensions and create a lasting peace where Japanese are ashamed of their past and know the Chinese are constantly there to remind them of it. This will always ensure that Japan will feel guilt about what they did, and never again desire to create tension with China. However, because Japan is clearly capable of invading China with it's 16 destroyers and 18 non-nuclear subs.....we must protect ourselves by increasing our defense budge 10 fold to counter the new Japanese threat, including the forward psoitioning of troops and missles. If only Japan would not be so aggressive in it's stance with China, China would welcome the Japan to be more humble and bow down before the Chinese and issue an apology every 56 minutes as that would truly be a commitment to peace. Anything less is proof the Japanese want to murder another 35 million Chinese. We all know how Japan brutally exterminated 45 million Chinese at least, and there fore Japan should not be allowed to have war shrines, text books, or guns...actually, they shouldn't be able to have any kind of liquids either.
