This thread somehow reminded me of that "Kerr mistakenly called Yao Chinaman" thread. After multiple poster tried very hard to explain why this term was offensive, and even after Kerr acknowledged his own mistake, and made a public apology about the usage of the term, there were still a few posters trying untirely to determine that Chinese posters were over-sensitive. They claimed that Chinese had no reason to be upset, even after the history background associated with that term was explained to them, and they even told you that they wouldn't be upset if you call them "Englishman or Spainman".
Since you asked, here's my opinion... Ottomaton is expressing his frustration at what he sees as an inability to have a discussion about the topic without being "ganged up on." I honestly don't think he was trying to be personally insulting. I've exchanged posts with him for quite some time, and we don't always agree, but I've always found him to be intelligent, interesting, polite, and up for a good debate. I was wondering... is it considered more insulting by a Chinese poster, or one of a Chinese background, because dogs are sometimes eaten in China? I'm reaching here, so if I'm off base, please let me know. Personally, I think his post would be a lot funnier if the man with the dogs was Bush, with the faces of Condi Rice, Rumsfeld, Rove, and the goofus who's currently a recess appointment as UN ambassador... his name escapes me, as the faces for the dogs. Now that would have been hilarious! This stuff drives me crazy. What logic drives you to this conclusion? I've seen it time and again. Someone disagrees with you (or someone else who easily takes offense at what they see as an "assault" on China), and they are labeled this way. Now, there is a history here between different posters about these topics... I certainly wouldn't argue that, but to label someone out of the blue like this is, pardon me, very insulting to that person. You are assuming an agenda simply because someone disagrees with you. That is unfair, and makes discussion damned near impossible. Ottomaton, for example, is left with either ignoring the comment, which might imply that some of it was true (personally, I think it would show common sense on his part, but I digress), or defending himself from a very insulting charge. That, or just getting really angry and posting something he might regret. Misunderstandings are very easy here. Otoomaton and I had one once because I misspelled his moniker 4 or 5 times in a thread. I spelled it Ottoman, because of the old Ottoman Empire, which is an interest of mine, and didn't realize it. He thought for a while that it had been deliberate. That turned out to be good for a laugh, but demonstrates how we can misunderstand, and find offense, where none was intended. Hope that came out the way I intended it to! (don't want to upset anyone!) Keep D&D Civil.
Of course not! Those were the things said by New Yorker. Otto, normally you stayed with topic and kept your cool. Although there was disagreements, I normally don't see you launch any attack; otherwise, I wouldn't even reply to your picture. I just really feel you crossed the line this time. If it was indeed a joke from you, I consider one with bad taste.
Not sure whether you are aware there is a term in Chinese called "walking dogs". It's designated for those hardcore obinient dogs like followers of very bad person. It was often used to describe those Chinese who helped Japanese troops to kill Chinese people.
I was not aware of this and in no way intended to imply such. For those that interpreted it that way, I provide my deepest heartfelt apology. No complex allusions were intended.
Been away from CF.net most of the time today, I didn't expect this place would turn into an institutional China/Chinese bashing. I see Chinese posters here are being ridiculed as a bunch of barking dogs. Well since such insult is not opposed by mods, so I guess we just have to live with it if we want to continue to post here. I'll say this to my fellow Chinese posters, calm down, step back, and take a deep breath. Debate one issue at a time, don't let others' random ramblings dictate your thoughts.
It was at its worst timing in a Japanese War Shrine visit thread, where everyone's blood pressure was already high Let's move on.
Yes, I do find it insulting, not so much by the dog part, more by the implication that I'm not capable of logical thinking or debating. In stead, I'm "barking" as a puppy of Hu - someone who's ideology or doctrine I know little of. Frustration may it be, it doesn't warrant the insult to a group of people. It's more insulting than calling P Ewing a monkey for example. It matters little if Otto (who I view as mostly a reasonable debator) thinks it's insulting. BTW, how "ganged up on" would one be when Chinese are clearly the minority here. Maybe I should start to call my conservative American friends "Bushie barking dogs" next time we have an academic difference, Since dogs are clearly loved here.
Go for it! Thanks for the explanations, guys. I had a feeling there was something about using the dogs that someone who was Chinese might find offensive. I wasn't sure what, so threw something out there as a possibility, but now I have a better idea. Thanks! Keep D&D Civil.
Maybe ottomaton didn't mean to insult, I don't know. Cultural differences and misunderstanding can be huge sometimes. Dogs are cute and considered men's best friends in vast Western culture, but in China they are traditionally not valued highly. Many dog-related idioms have derogative meanings. In old Shanghai, by old I mean the era of semi-colonialism that pre-dates the Japanese invasion, dogs and Chinese locals were banned from entering many parks reserved only for colonialists, and in rare occasion, their Chinese nannies. This little anecdote just shows how offensive it is to lump Chinese with dogs. No big deal if you don't know much about Chinese history/culture, but I hope this little explanation helps. I personally wouldn't mind of being called a dog, partly because I am more accustomed to Western culture, partly because personal insult is far less offensive than racial/ethnic insults, but that's just me. OK, enough dog stuff. Let's move on.
To continue with the debate, ottomaton, I don't see you post much in this thread prior to that dog pic. Maybe instead of expressing your frustration wholesale, you could elaborate on what particular issues you don't agree with the Chinese posters?
th It isn't about anti-china, it's about people demanding their feelings be legitimized when they will not do it for others.
Without textbooks, The PRC might be a democracy by now.... Personally, many of the convicted war criminals in the Shrine has questionable levels of responsibilities, while the Emporer of Japan at the time walked away free even though many of the atrocities were at his ordering. Because Japan wasn't a signatory to the Geneva Convention, they could only be charged with "Crimes against peace" or class A vs. the much harsher "crimes against humanity" or Class C warcrime. Under Japanese law, the 14 guys buried in the shrine (which means Peaceful Nation Shrine by the way) aren't war criminals. It shoudl be noted that because Japan did not sign the Geneva Convention until after WWII, it does not consider that atomic bombings by the U.S. as war crimes either. While it is true that Japan commited atrocities that are no less horrible then what the Germans did, Japan has issued numerous apologies. For example, Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama, in August 1995, stated that Japan "through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations", and he expressed his "feelings of deep remorse" and stated his "heartfelt apology". Also, on September 29, 1972, Japanese Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka stated, "The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself." Japan feels that China is trying to make Japan lower itself even further, to the point of embarrassment of Japan despite Japan's numerous attempts at reconcilliation. Now, is it right for Japan to write textbooks that lie about the Holocaust? Well, morally - of course not...but hey, they can do what they want. Someday the Germans will probably do the same. How do you prevent this from happening? How can the Chinese make the Japanese accept their version (presumably the correct one!) of history? By stop rubbing it in their faces after all their countless apologies. By asking the Japanese politely to remember and teach their children so it will not happen again, but at the same time by accepting Japan's apology and forgiving them so they don't have to constantly apologize for it everyday.
first, it was NOT directed to Ottoman, please get the fact straight before you get all worked up. it was directed at StupidMoniker. And the reason I asked is: I think he has asian background because he could dig up a lot of things about China that someone without Asian background will have a hard time achieving. But he also choose to present things in a very biased way, such as citing certain sources but not others, things like that. He is not a guy shy of responding questions. You probably don't know the situation well, but I can see where he is coming from and he wants to hide it. Will you say that knowing he is a Japanese, for example, will have no effect whatsoever on how you take his opinions?
No, I wouldn't say that, but based on what I've seen him post, it wouldn't occur to me. Maybe I'm clueless. Keep D&D Civil.
China had a decent relationship with Japan until their PM routinely visit the War shrine. You seem to be VERY generous on Japanese but quite harsh on Chinese. Why don't we all beg Islamic extremists politely "let us live in peace"? I think Chinese and Koreans are doing the right thing. Japan is putting itself in a corner, and it will be further marginized if it doesn't turn around soon.
For what - visiting a war shrine with the name "Peaceful Nation Shrine"????? The shrine is a reminder for Japan not to go to war again... I think China needs to tone down the rhetoric and form better relations with Japan and find a way to educate Japanese about what really happend instead of just attacking Japan.
