You should post all the clear personal attacks made by real-egan and canooer or whatever. Really, are you so self-righteous to say this to one side and not the other?
OK this thread has gotten way out of hand and is now turning into a catch all pro PRC vs. anti-PRC thread. Tibet, the Sino-Indian War, Spratly Islands, Mao's legacy are all important topics but shouldn't they deserve separate threads? I will say it again, and I'm sure I will say it many many many more times. The Yasukuni Shrine is not solely a PRC vs Japan issue but one that concerns not only ethnic Chinese but practically every country in Asia that was occupied by the Japanese in WWII. Those arguing for having the Japanese PM continue to visit the shrine seem hell bent on pointing out Chinese hypocrisy and those arguing against seem hell bent on defending every single aspect of PRC history. What does any of that have to do with South Koreans, Malays, Philipinos, US Pacific War Vets and many others who are offended by the shrine visits? Is the argument going to be well South Koreans shouldn't be offended since their country was under a corrupt right wing militaristic regime for decades, Malays are becoming Islamofascists, the Philipines are rife with corruption and most Pacific War Vets support Bush, I mean is the debate going to be about pointing out all of the flaws of those who are offending by this? At the same time for the Chinese posters why so defensive? What matters if it was the PRC or India that attacked first in a rather limited conflict that never really resolved anything and hasn't been much of a flashpoint. Don't you guys see you are just falling into a rhetorical trap to side track the issue? For the record I'm an ethnic Chinese born in the US. My Dad grew up in Hong Kong and my mom in Taiwan but my Mom's family is from Nanjing originally and some of my family was caught up in the Rape of Nanjing. At the same time though I'm no fan of the PRC and won't hesitate to criticize them. In fact on the D & D thread about Chen Tsui Bien I had a Chinese poster tell me I would never be welcome in China (PRC) since I dared to say I didn't see what the big deal was with letting Taiwan go independent. (Also for the record my Mom's family were heavily involved in the KMT and fled China when the CCP took power.) Just because I disagree with the CCP and Chinese nationalists on a whole variety of issues doesn't disqualify my view that it is morally offensive for the Japanese PM to officially visit the shrine and for the Japanese to present a revisionist history of what they did during the war. That doesn't mean that Mao or the PRC are untouchable but these are separate issues.
IMO boths sides have gotten way out of hand with this issue. Let me just ask you this. New Yorker, do you at least understand why Chinese and others are so offended by this?
My comments were the result of real life experience. As I got my mail today a lady was walking several barking dogs. We tried to exchange pleasantries and it was incredibly frustrating and went nowhere. The frustration seemed familiar, and in a moment of enlightenment I remembered where I had last felt the same frustration of being drowned out. If you choose to view it as an insult, I can only say it is an honest impression of my frustrating experiences.
^ Sorry Ottomaton and New Yorker that question wasn't about your dog pic but about the issue in general. Do you understand why Chinese and others are so offended by the Japanese PM officially visiting Yasukuni?
If you felt you were attacked personally, you are welcome to speakout. I've seen posts that labeled you a China-basher and such, that's what I call name-calling, still not right, but far from the level of insult that Ottoman's portraying here. Ottoman, you can have your frustration in dealing with people on this board, but lumping "Chinese posters" with the image of barking dogs in public will not go unnoticed as you may have seen. They may be defending PRC on this board, how do you know they are not critisizing PRC in other venures to other groups of people? You can agree to disagree with anyone, but don't imply that people who disagree with you are incapable of indenpendent thoughts, especially to a entire group.
I think being called a moron and a liar and all sorts of other stuff is pretty offensive, but I try to just stay clear of that. Personally, I don't think Otto's dog photo is offensive - it's satirical in that it's making a point. But here we go again with the defensive nature of people on this board. Notice that I never got into a personal attack war with people...because the easiest way to disarm those who would throw irrational insults is just not to acknowledge them. If people are going to be super sensitive, then i suggest they stay away from reading this board....it's a place for exchange of ideas, the individuals who post are immaterial.
Of course we do. We're don't deny the atrocities commited from that age....my point is to only make people aware that getting offended by it is useless. Being offended is useless. It serves no purpose. Actually, I think it helps make the Japanese PM more popular for standing up to the "other" Asian nations and doing it. If no one made a big deal about it, it couldn't be used for as much political clout. There's great irony in that. Instead of getting offended - which you have your right to do of course - why not focus energies into something more productive?
So, basically what you are saying is that if you are wronged, suck it up and say nothing. I am not saying "let's bomb the **** of those Japanese" because I don't think it is the right course, but I think it is perfectly appropriate to raise people's awareness of what dangerous direction Japanese are going down and if they don't change course they are gonna be isolated. They have already been isolated to some degree by neighboring countries. They have pushed other countries, such as China, Korea, Russia, and India closer. I think all the protests are already paying off and if it continues Japan will be marginized. Isn't that beautiful? And that is the point of the whole thing, isn't it?
My guess is that you are either: 1) Japanese decedent; or 2) Chinese "refugee" in US; or 3) Supporter of Taiwan independence Am I right? I cannot track who has said what, among you, newyorker, Lil, and maybe 1 more person. I am sure above lables fit some of you. I don't think this is personal attack. It is just easier to see where your opinions come from.
This is all that's needed. We could have cut a lot of crap. All 20 pages of them. If you don't think the shrine visit is a big deal since you've never experienced horrid Japanese occupation, I understand. Or, maybe you don't think shrine visit is a big deal because you don't actually know the political intricacy and implication of the shrine visit to the Japanese politics. Revisionist history is not just about history, but also about current, real Japanese political movement. Masahiko Fujiwara, author of the recent blockbuster A Nation’s Dignity, and a poster boy for Japanese conservatives, says: “The concept of an A-class criminal doesn’t mean anything, because winners don’t have the right to judge the losers, not just in Tokyo but also in Nuremburg." Shrine visit, is under background such as this. Maybe it's no big deal to you. It sure is a big deal for people in the Asia. All the other crap has little to do with this. Now onto the rest: So why has Germany been expected to teach their children about the atrocities comitted but not Japan, again? China does teach "the military killing students", 5.4 movement is a section of the history book of killing of the students by military government. If it's 6.4 you are refering to, it's not "history" enough to be taught, but yes it does mention the fact people including students die. Yes, China does teach students foreign accussations of Tibet - "other views" as you called it. Maybe to your surprise, Chinese here are aware of the "other views". gov't forced women to have abortions? What's there to teach? Everyone knows of the one-child policy, in fact most of the current generation is a result of the one-child policy. It's their life. But do you know that forced abortion is most a doing of local government in competition of their execution of the one-child policy, not a Chinese policy per se? Killing of female babies? You show more ignorance here. China doesn't have a policy of killing female babies. In fact, Government has been encouraging the birth of female babies as the problem of population sexual imbalance looms large. It's the parents who killed the female babies. The government is trying to stop that. Oh, for you, it's OK not to set the facts straight, because you can assail with whatever and then turn around to call the other "defiant". No, the validity of criticism of Japan's shrine visit doesn't hinge on whatever I view of China's past as Sishir Chang and others have pointed out. But for my part, I do admit China's past wrongs if the accusation is valid.
Barking dogs around a communist leader, is how you view your fellow posters. Frustration or not, no need to further explain. If you only posted a couple of dogs, you might be able to spin out of your way. Does anyone really need your explanation about that picture? You were over the line. Just let it dry and go.
Dude, you cross the line in every post you write - re-read what you write and then talk about how you view your fellow posters!
No, I'm saying if you are wronged (actually injured), then deal with it at the moment. Afterwards forget it. If someone insults you, let it go. Who cares? Some guy visits a war shrine that happens to have things there that offend you....SO WHAT! You're creating the symbolism, not them. To them it's a war shrine of 2.5 million dead japanese - to you it's evil incarnate. If everyone has to be so PC and sensitive about everything every person does, soon the world is going to be a big rotating bottle of whine. The war ended 60 years ago! Let them visit a shrine. And face the fact - everyone writes history to present themselves in the best light. It's just human nature.
You are free to quote me. I will not tell people with certain ethnic background to shut up, or whether they have the right to do anything.
