Well to be more specific, it isn't the mere existence of the Japanese Yasukuni war shrine but the fact that the leader of the govt of Japan visits it. If the govt visits stopped but the shrine remained, there wouldn't be any protests, I pretty sure, because I never hear about them except when a Japanese PM visits. As for the latter point, this is what I keep finding troubling. Someone Mao's excesses and failures seem to make people want to seemingly exhonerate Japanese war crimes. Again one has nothing to do with the other. There is no linkage! Just like sraeli human rights violations have nothing to do with the Holocaust and it would be offensive to me if people linked it to attack Israel's current policies. Is good that at least one other person seems to understand this POV.
Thanks bro. This isn't the first time I tried to bring balance and a bit of self-reflection to the Chinese on this board. In many ways, an exercise in futility. The hypocrisy and ethno-centrism encountered here is plain as day. (You oughta see the Chinese on the board go off on Taiwan!) Nationalism is evil in Japan, but hey it's glorious and righteous in China. Honoring dead soldiers/leaders/patriots is insulting and stupid and disgraceful in Japan, but it's religion in China. Japan is wrong for glossing over wars they fought (and lost) 60 years ago, but China is perfectly within reason for glossing over Tianmen Square, Cultural Revolution, GLF, Tibet, etc. etc. etc. which happened much more recently. But then again, I guess ethnocentrism is present in just about everyone, so it really isn't the Chinese posters' fault. All I asked was for the people on this board to pause, and think about themselves. Judge themselves and their own country before imposing judgement on others and their countries. I believe that everyone has their reasons, and most of the time, people ARE trying their best to be the best they can. All atrocities happen for a reason. One needs to understand the root cause of these things (1920s-30s education, prejudice, social conditions and norms) and not blindly hate the perpetrators (nor their descendents). Of course Japanese people are gonna be defending their national heroes, and the memory of their forefathers. It is just common sense. The point is not to make a big fuss about this natural behavior, nor to take pointless diplomatic offense at this, but to work to prevent this stuff from ever happening again. Screaming and yelling and insulting Japanese people about something they won't change their minds about (as the Chinese are doing today) simply isn't all that constructive. Anyhow, before I start ranting again, just wanted to thank you for actually reading my post and giving me some thoughtful and insightful feedback!
Well, I have a slightly different take on the shrine stuff. Even if the Japanese are unwilling to move the 14 Class-A war criminals (to be perfectly clear, I think many of the 1000 or so Class-B and -C war criminals are no less evil) to some place else, the leader of Japan should refrain from visiting the shrine publically in official capacity, especially on the Japan surrender date. I personally couldn't care less if they do it privately. There is nothing you can do about that. It's like when you masturbate, you only do it in private. If you go public, you are announcing to the world you are a sex maniac who has total disregard of public opinions. It also suggests you have the propensity to do something really stupid, beyond public masturbation.
ok... i'll make it real simple for ya. ever took the SAT? here is an analogy. Hu visiting Mao's Mausoleum is to China as Koizumi visiting Yasukuni is to Japan. This is the relationship. If Tibetans today start demanding Hu (and all future Chinese leaders) to denounce Mao, apologize for all of the China's past trepasses against Tibet (since the Tang Dynasty in the 7th Century), to describe at length the extent of PLA's brutality in Tibet in all of China's history textbooks, and to promise to stop all future visits to Mao's Mausoleum, would China agree? If you cannot understand this relationship, then really we have nothing more for us to discuss. If you can see this relationship, then you should see how futile and counter-constructive (if not ludicrous) these demands are. Just try it... it is good practice.
Dude, the more you write, the more you make my accessment of you accurate. I suggest you to put your American education in use and write some propaganda for Jihadist, 'cause you are perfect for them.
If you can't fight the logic and can't face the facts, get out of the way. Frankly, my friend, if you think that bureaucrats in the Japanese diplomatic service (as several of these class-A war criminals that you keep bringing up were) were "more evil" than Mao and less worthy of being honored by their own descendents, then you ought to reread my posts, again and again and again, until you see the light.
Geez, logic? Again, to which my dissimation of your logic you provided counter? Actually my suggestion to you embedded perfect logic if you can ever see it. Don't give me this silly SAT stuff. I'm hoping your brain can handle more than this standard test stuff. Plus, your answer wouldn't even be right.
This would be only true if Mao had committed mass atrocities on Japanese on the order of what Japan had done in WWII. In that case, then I think it is a fair comparison. Otherwise it is completely inappropriate because there is otherwise on linkage. One had nothing to do with the other. Mao did nothing to Japan therefore what does the existence of Mao's mausoleum have to do with anything? For many Chinese Mao is both a hero and a villain but the Japanese imperialists were complete villains so again it is also not a fair comparison either. This issue has nothing to do with Japanese shrine visits and is a complete canard. If Tibetans wanted to demand this, then it is an issue in and of itself and still has nothing to do with the shrine visits. If in discussing this issue, some Chinese bring up the Shrine visits (saying for instance that China can distort history because Japan does it) then again it would be inappropriate because as I keep on saying one issue has nothing to do with another. Do you not understand this concept? If you insist that we it is appropriate and proper to bring up unrelated topics to steer discussion away from the topic at hand then we really have nothing more to discuss. To me it would be inappropriate for people to bring up Israeli human rights abuses when discussing WWII and the Holocaust but if people think that even that would be fine then I have nothing more to say.
Lots of Western people have twisted views on China and Chinese people, partly because people like you. Some people like to pretend knowledgable while they only know the half truth, which sometimes can be worse than lies. But people like you, Sir, are certainly twisting facts, intentionally over-reaching, with an agenda. Again and again, you are equalling prosecuted war criminals to Mao. Again and again, you are equaling Tianan Men Square to Nanjing Masacre. You intentionally switching the hot spot "honoring war criminals" to "Honoring dead soldiers/leaders/patriots". You are sensitive enough to feel that Chinese protesting is hurting feelings of Japanese people, but you are so happy to tell Chinese people to forget about 30 million death, because it's past. Again, for those of you who tried so hard to question Chinese hypocracy of protesting war criminal honoring, if you could just do once out of ten times, similiarly tell Jewish people to stop talking about Holocaust, because their human rights record isn't the glorious. If any one of you would do that, I would disagree with your argument, but consider you a decent person, who does have own principle. It doesn't surprise anyone, none of you ever had the guts to do that. Meanwhile, you are crying for facts and harmony. It does say a lot about your character. A little piece of information for you: NOONE in the world, except Japanese prime minister, officially pays homage to convicted war criminals. It's an offensive violation of law, to defend Hitler and Nazi crime in Germany. Posts like yours to defend those convicted Nazi Germany war criminals in a massage board goes to that category as well.
You really showed your true color. Lots of Japanese people think that way. You Sir, are certainly with them as well, considering those convicted war criminals heroes. There really isn't anything left to discuss with you.
You edited to add this, and it makes my suggestion for your career more proper. You have just gave Osama's right-hand-man, one that's in charge of Jihadist message a giant pass. Scratch that, Osama himself is also just a messenger of hatred and mastermind of Jihad, give him a free pass too. Congratulations.
just for the record. china won the war. japan lost its empire. the age of imperialism came to an end. nearly all of japan's war-time leaders were condemned and hanged. and i'm happy about all of that. so why are you still angry? you want to rub your victory in japan's face for all of eternity? could you maybe, just maybe, try to be a gracious winner? and for the record, i am also one of the biggest opponents of Israeli policies toward Palestine on this board, to the point of being labeled an anti-semite just as you are labeling me all sorts of names. you simply need to understand that Koizumi goes to Yasukuni to honor dead soldiers and patriots, and NOT war criminals. yes, SOME of the people enshrined were war criminals (and we've discussed at length how many of them were actually involved in biological experiments, nanjing, etc.), but they WERE SOLDIERS AND PATRIOTS nonetheless. It is on THIS basis that Koizumi pays his respects to them. If you cannot grasp that concept, then you're absolutely right, we have nothing left to discuss.
I am pretty sure that you are very knowledgable in Japanese history. You intentionally lied about the facts, AGAIN. Out of thousands of convicted war criminals, only 14 were hung. Another piece of information for you, NOT a single war criminal was hung by Chinese. Lots of them were sentensed to a special prison in China. Withholding all the emotion for revenge, Chinese people tried to "correct" those criminals. Later on, they were ALL released and sent back to Japan UNHARMED. Some of them became driving force of the movement to face war history with honesty, appreicate Chinese forgiving attitude and being grateful for NOT asking for any demage compensation. You are still blaming Chinese unforgiving and can't get over the past? You really have some twisted logic and heart. Chinese are very forgiving, we get over with almost all war crimes committed by other people. Troops from 8 countries including US burned down Yuan Ming Yuan. Chinese never demand an apology or hardly even mention that. Britains punished Chinese for not allowing them to sell Ophium to Chinese people, and forcefully took Hong Kong for 150 years, Chinese get over with it. But Chinese will not get over when Japanese repay Chinese generousity with more right wing offensive new crime by honoring convicted war criminals. If you cannot grasp that concept, then you're absolutely right, we have nothing left to discuss.
BTW, it's so funny to see same excuse/message from Japanese right wing and you. "Rubbing in Japanese face eternally" crap. They didn't honestly faced past war crimes EVEN ONCE, and continue to deny and lie about it, and yet you are complaining that they will carrry the guilt forever? What a sick notion.
Maybe not in China but it is anyone's right here in the States. It might be better for China to focus on it's own human rights and the war crimes it commits against it's own citizens instead of Japan bashing.
That wasn't an emotional statement. And further more, I'm not labeling or judging anyone...I suggest you find someone else to call stupid.
It was not peaceful. They intentionally went into black neighborhoods to stir up trouble. Further more, there were reports of violence after the march instigated by the neo-nazis. They have a right to express their beliefs...but not to go to the edge of someone's lawn to spout hatred and intimidate.
When ever you try to challenge someone's view, they will likely turn it into a personal attack...that's the problem with these boards...people don't actually respond to what you're writing, they just jump to conclusions and attack. It's because people are more interested in "winning" an argument then actually learning something. And you kinda did make yourself a target by the way. It's ok...I mean, don't take it personally - it's just a board. I love it when people make judgements - like you're stupid, or narrow-minded, and they don't even know who you are. What does that tell you about them...and do you really need to respond to the personal attack? Just post your ideas and ignore those who can't engage in mature debate.
For people with nothing left to discuss, you all seem to be doing a lot of discussing. War, death, the aftermath. War is one of those things man seems driven to do, full of both transcendent acts of selflessness, and the worst kinds of acts of which man is capable. How these things are dealt with in history is important to the understanding of those who follow, but no amount of studying what preceded us seems able to prevent humanity from continuing the pursuit of war. Whether the war springs from a miscalculation, an incident, some longstanding animosity, a perceived national interest, hubris, or brute stupidity, the consequences are both unpredictable and as predictable as the next sunrise. Keep D&D Civil.
Bring up a statement of yours in a Holocaust-related debate along the line "it might be better for Israel/Jews to focus on its own human rights and the war crimes it commits against its own citizens (Palestinian/Arab Israelis) instead of Iran bashing." Just do it.
