No more ironic than Americans that have complained about other nations' human right records yet embraced our founding fathers who have committed genocide and practiced slavery.
Chinese who visit the shrine of Mao are the same as Japanese who visit the war criminals, not all Chinese, but otherwise correct. I have said several times that the Chinese have every right to be offended. The rights of people to be offended are not at issue. Be offended, or don't, as you so choose. Any Chinese that support Mao are supporters of evil, IMO, as evidenced by the evil things Mao has done. What facts, logic, and real examples. I have yet to see a single link provided by anyone but me. I have seen plenty of people distorting my argument with claims like: I am telling Chinese what they are allowed to feel offended by, I am taking away Chinese right to protest, etc. Mao didn't starve people on purpose, the famine was a result of incompetence. I must have posted that 10 times by now in this thread. NOT ON PURPOSE, NOT ON PURPOSE, NOT ON PURPOSE, NOT ON PURPOSE. Only Chinese people that support Mao. I am assuming that is a subset of all Chinese people. I didn't tell anyone to shut up. I have repeatedly said people can say whatever they want, protest whatever they want, and feel however they want about whatever they want. Why did I make the initial statement that I found it ironic that a culture that enshrined Mao would protest enshrining war criminals? I did it because I found it ironic that a culture that enshrined Mao would protest enshrining war criminals. Why have I continued discussing it? For one thing, people have continued to direct posts at me. For another, there have been several posts mischaracterizing what I have had to say that I felt the need to rebut. There was one post about how Mao was the Chinese equivalent of George Washington that I thought should be addressed. I guess overall I have continued this discussion because I felt like it. Why are you "doing this"? I don't know where you came up with the notion that I support Japanese war crimes. Does opposing the deification of Mao inherently mean I support Japanese war crimes? If I equated Mao to the Japanese war criminals, as many have said, and called Mao on of the most evil people ever, doesn't that mean I think the Japanese war criminals are among the most evil people ever. Just to be clear here: Mao == evil, Japanese war criminals == evil, Hitler == evil, Stalin == evil. Now people are getting the idea. It is certainly ironic for Americans who embrace slave owners and people who have committed genocide to complain about others doing the same thing. Anyone who embraces General Washington (and there are many of us) would be hypocritical in denouncing another leader because they owned slaves. That his will called for emancipation of all of his slaves after the death of his wife is an interesting anecdote, though it does not excuse the fact that he owned slaves from the age of 11 until his death.
At the risk of fanning the flames here a bit more, let's dig a bit deeper into these "Class-A" war criminals and look for their involvement in the atrocities. The following is a list of 14 Class-A Japanese World War II criminals who are honored in Yasukuni Shrine along with 2.5 million war dead. — Prime Minister Gen Hideki Tojo Tojo was prime minister when Japan launched the Dec 7, 1941, attack on Pearl Harbor. Tojo led Japan's leadership to wage war against the United States and Britain. He was hanged. — Gen Seishiro Itagaki Itagaki was a war planner of the Kwantung Army, a unit of the Imperial Japanese Army that was active in northeastern China. He masterminded the Sept 18, 1931, train attack in Liutiaogou, which triggered the Manchuria Incident, a pretext for the invasion of Manchuria. He was hanged. — Gen Kenji Dohihara Dohihara was an architect of Japan's military operations of Manchuria and involved in establishing the puppet state of "Manchukuo" and the Manchuria Incident. He was hanged. — Gen Iwane Matsui Matsui was the commander of the central China expeditionary force responsible for the Nanking Massacre in 1937. He was hanged. — Gen Heitaro Kimura Kimura held key posts in the Japanese army such as a Kwantung Army war planner. He became the commander-in-chief of the Burma Area Army and was responsible for building the Burma Railway, also referred to as the "Death Railway." He was hanged. — Lt Gen Akira Muto Muto served as chief of the operations department of the Army's general staff when the Marco Polo Bridge Incident on July 7, 1937, in the Beijing suburbs. The incident triggered the eight-year Sino-Japan war. Muto was also appointed chief of staff to Gen. Tomoyuki Yama****a in the Philippines in 1944. He was hanged. — Prime Minister Koki Hirota Hirota was a veteran diplomat who served as prime minister from March 1936 to February 1937. He was foreign minister when the war between Japan and China started in 1937 and the Japanese army invaded Nanking the same year. He was the only civilian among the seven class-A criminals who was hanged and later honored at the Tokyo shrine. — Prime Minister Gen Kuniaki Koiso Koiso was involved in Japan's military deployment in Manchuria in early 1930s as chief of staff of the Kwantung Army. He replaced Tojo as prime minister in July 1944 and led the war against the United States. He was sentenced to life imprisonment and died in prison. — Diplomat Toshio Shiratori Shiratori was closely involved in the process of Japan's forming alliance with Germany and Italy in 1940 as ambassador to Italy. He was sentenced to life imprisonment and died in prison. — Gen Yoshijiro Umezu Umezu served as the commander of the Kwantung Army and was chief of the Army General Staff when WWII ended. He was sentenced to life imprisonment and died while serving time. — Prime Minister Kiichiro Hiranuma Hiranuma took premiership from January to August in 1939. He was sentenced to life imprisonment and died shortly after being released on parole. Former Economy, Trade and Industry Minister Takeo Hiranuma is his adopted son. Kiichiro was the younger brother of Takeo's grandfather. — Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo Togo served as foreign minister both when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in December 1941 and WWII ended in August 1945. He was sentenced to a 20-year imprisonment and died in prison. — Foreign Minister Yosuke Matsuoka Matsuoka was Japan's chief representative when the country withdrew from the League of Nations in 1933 and served as foreign minister when Japan formed an alliance with Germany and Italy in 1940. He died before the ruling was handed down. — Navy Minister Adm Osami Nagano Nagano became chief of the naval general staff in 1941 and supported the attack on Pearl Harbor. He died before the ruling was handed down. (Kyodo News) =========================================== Of these, we have 6 cabinet/diplomatic officials (Tojo, Hirota, Shiratori, Hiranuma, Togo, Matsuoka), 1 navy officer (Nagano), and 7 army officers (Muto, Umezu, Koiso, Kimura, Matsui, Dohihara, Itagaki), of which only 5 were actually linked to the Kwantung Army. Of these, we have 6 cabinet/diplomatic officials (Tojo, Hirota, Shiratori, Hiranuma, Togo, Matsuoka), 1 navy officer (Nagano), and 7 army officers (Muto, Umezu, Koiso, Kimura, Matsui, Dohihara, Itagaki), of which only 5 were actually linked to the Kwantung Army. Of these only Doihara, Hirota, Kimura, Koiso, Matsui, Muto were actually found guilty on charges or atrocities or the failure to prevent them at the Tokyo Tribunal. How many of them actually participated in running Unit 731? None. In fact, ALL of the physicians on Unit 731 were granted IMMUNITY by the allies at the end of the war in exchange for the scientific data they had collected from their horrific bio-weapon experiments. How many of them actually killed or raped people during the Nanjing Massacre? I would guess none of them too. But let's put that aside. So we have 6 guys (mostly soldiers) who are in question here, out of the 2.5 million soldiers enshrined at Yasukuni. Next we ask, what is the purpose of the shrine? To worship all soldiers that made sacrifices for the glory of Japan. Did these soldiers do that? I would say yes. In an age of Imperialism, what is glory? It is empire-building and aggression. It is the triumph and domination of one's race over all others. These soldiers did exactly as they were brought up and taught their entire lives. They loved their country, and served it in the best way they could. And while the Nanjing Massacre was a mess, it served a military goal (to demoralize Chinese resistance) much like Dresden and Hiroshima did. If Japan had firebombs, they would use it. If Japan had nukes, they would use it. But as they only had soldiers and bayonets, they used what was available. In an environment where civilians were fair game, and the tools were rudimentary, it is only logical that we see human savagery on this scale. If they knew better, yes we can fault them. But did they know better? Could they know better? I hesitate to judge. Can any of you really say that their intentions were pure evil (and by this I mean the class-A war criminals in question here)? I only see fanatical (albeit misdirected) nationalism, which should not be a crime in itself. I believe that's how many Japanese see it today. Yes the actions (or lack thereof) of the war criminals might have been reprehensible, but they paid the ultimate price. They were disgraced and executed. But as for the question of whether they belong in Yasukuni, the only thing to ask is "Were they honorable soldiers who loved and served their country?" And, to me, it's pretty logical that they are still in the shrine. And any foreign nationalists trying to strip them of that right is just insulting the integrity of the entire shrine and all of Japan. I'm not a Japanese. And frankly I don't give a rat's ass one way or another, neither about Japanese nor Chinese sensitivities. I'm just trying to illustrate the Japanese point of view, and saying that with a little less hatred and a little less hypocrisy, heck, we can get along a lot better. Peace out.
I can not believe there are people here that would actually defend the Japanese war criminals. It is a shame that we have posters like you on the clutch bbs. I have not censored anyone on the bbs before, you sir are the first and I hope the last to receive this "honor".
LOL ... what an assclown. The label of semi-japanese (I don't know why the abbreviated version is a taboo in D&D) b*stard couldn't be any more appropriate on you. Frankly, the Japanese POV is better illustrated by a Japanese poster. Do we have one here? Yeah sure, bayonets were the only weapons available to the IJA when they invaded China in WWII. What a historian, eh, make it military historian. Skipping all other diatribe, I only want to point out this: This certainly put the Americans who were in charge on par with the worst war criminals.
Lil, For the last time, Hitler didn't kill any Jew himself, go ahead to start the petition to clear his name. In case you missed the point entirely. Chinese, Koreans, and other Asian do NOT have problem that soldiers were remembers. The problem IS at a few you just mentioned. The problem started when those were moved in, and the problem will start to clear when they are moved out. Again, enshrining fallen soldiers is the right of Japanese people, but denying past war crimes in the Shrine, worshipping war criminals, and people like you supporting war crimes ARE nobody's right. Nobody has right to carry out genocide, nobody has right to carry out war crimes killing tens of thousands people, and nobody has right to worship and defend those people.
I appreciate your approach...it's actually very intelligent and aware. However; you're dealing with people's emotions and they are not capable of serperating that out from you. Intelligent detached debate is what I seek...but too much on these boards people have to go on personal offensives. You see, it's much easier to attack you then your position. And I know you are only offering this position in order to spur debate and show everyone another side. People don't want to see the other side though, they rather live in their unreality and just think they are right and everyone is wrong. Be careful when you threaten that reality...it's an art I know I'm still learning. What has happened here is that by trying to show another point of view, people call you a support of war crimes. It's so laughable that it's hard to see the sadness in that. Oh well, I tip my cap for you for trying!
Because it went beyond worshiping to the point of intimidating others. It crossed a line. It was psychological violence they were doing. I didn't say you were free to worship ANY WAY YOU WANT TO. I just said you can believe in whatever you want.
No it was peaceful, they didn't beat up anybody. What's your problem? Look NewYorker, you are contradicting yourself all over the place. Your statement "the Holocaust is the most evil thing ever done in the history of humanity" is in and of itself emotional in nature. You should heed your own advice to others: learn to debate without emotion, but with intelligence.
You know, I started my response to you as a question about your knowledge. You then provided this "who-knows-where-it's-from" link which cited, among other things, Jung Chang - who is widely viewed as extremely biased even by western scholars. as its source. You have hardly shown by understanding of those numbers or their context to support your claim. The death toll can be roughly divided into periods of Land Reform, 3 against and 5 against, and Cultural Revolution --of which Mao had the most responsibility. There's no doubt Mao was responsible for many deaths in those periods through failed policies or as head of communist regime that struggle to establish rule. Many of deaths in Land Reform period was of KMT's side and was an extention of cilvil war. However, the biggest difference between Mao and Hitler or Japanese War Criminals is that Mao didn't set out to direct killing or destroy humanity. Even in CR, of which you are ardent to cite and Mao had the most responsibility, he didn't start it to destroy humanity nor did he directed killing. CR was spun out of control, but you wouldn't find him encourage killing in any of his articles or orders. His biggest political opponent was under house arrest. Can you identify some events of killing that due to Mao's "pure evilness on par with Hitler and war criminals"? Mao may be responsible for many deaths. But of "evilness", he's far from a Hitler or Japanese War Criminal, maybe slightly above GWB (by your logic), who is responsible for deaths of American soldiers through his failed Iraqi policy and have ordered toutures. Then again, you are entitled to your view that any Chinese who pay homage to Mao for the goodness he's done for the country is a supporter of evil.
You are wrong again. Worshiping and Defending are both actions, which are limited by law. One can be a racist in heart, but if one carries out in action and/or words in public, he will be dealt with by law. Comparing to war crimes, racial slur is far less serious. Openly worshiping and defending prosecuted war criminals who caused killing of tens of millions people (even those low-life Chinese), is NOT your right.
Holy **** this thread has really gone crazy. For those that don't understand or have little exposure to the issue, this is fiercely passionate topic for a lot of people, especially Asians. The sad thing is that I barely learning any of this in HS. In fact my World History Class (Honors Class mind you) spent an entire month on the Holocaust, yet not just glossed, but ignored the entire war in the pacific. I complained to my teacher and she said by state law she had to cover a unit on the Holocaust. This is fine, and I know the Holocaust is extremely important, but my issue was that she cut out other aspects, and her response was that if I was really interested, she would recommend me some books. WTF? What the hell is this? Reading Rainbow? So my HS education history wise was BS, and I can understand why my fellow Americans really don't know crap about the world. I mean one of the main reasons the Jewish Holocaust happened was that the world ignored the Armenian Genocide/Holocaust. Hitler himself said that. And my class did like a 10 sec mention of the Armenian Genocide as a slight precursor to the Holocaust. Nice huh? Fortunately in college Armenian students were pretty active in getting the issue out so I learned more about it. As far as the Japanese invasions/colonialization of Asia, a lot of that stems way back in the late 1800s. In America we think WWII happened in the 40s, but war was already going on in the 20, 30s, but since we weren't directly involved, we don't give a crap. The issue that Chinese/Korean/other Asians have problem with Japan today isn't just that Japan fought them in a war. It was a whole system of imperialism and colonial brutuality inflicted on a region in the guise of saving the whole continent from Europeans. I think it is extremely distasteful and outright offensive to split hairs over how someone died during that time when Japan's intent wasn't just to conquer, but to outright humiliate their victims. A lot has been said about the crap done to China, but I want to add if a Chinese soldier didn't die in battle, does that make his suffering less than those who did? I mean, what if he had family or friends raped and butchered? Close friends hung up and carved for fun? It's the collective humilation of your people and country that stings, whether you were directly part of it or not. And to top it off, your country was pleading for help to the international world, and no one gives a crap. How about Korea? Their entire culture was stripped and women forced into sex slavery. So a rape victim isn't as bad as a dead soldier cause she's still alive? And a dead soldier isn't as bad as a dead tortured soldier? And a dead tortured soldier isn't as bad as a dead civilian? See you can play this game forever go nowhere. So why are people complaining about 30 million or 7 million or 4 million? Again, I emphasize the suffering is a collective sense, where your people and country is humiliated and destroyed. The fact of the matter is that around 30 million people in China were killed, and there's no going back from that. I guarantee the Chinese people aren't splitting hairs over what is a war crime death vs. a battle casualty and Koreans aren't splitting hairs about who suffered more, the dead or rape victims. So why are we? So now we come back to today. Why is the issue still around? I believe it is largely due to Japan getting almost a free pass for their actions in WWII because the US let them. After all, Communism is more important that pursuing justice, right? As a result, the country that America nuked twice was rebuilt faster than the countries it victimized. And who's been the top dog in Asia for the last 30 years or so? At least economically it has been Japan, so in essence the sense of asian supremacy even artifically propped by the US has always been underlying. And if your the top dog, you can pretty much do anything you want right? Revise history, salute war criminals, stubbornly refused to pay reparations or apologize, blatanly let your people ignore your own recent history with your neighbors, etc, etc. Lesson certainly learn from the US. So that's why the wounds are still there in Asia and anomosity exists. Saying simply to let it go, and it happen a long time ago is arrogantly dismissive. After all, Japan has yet to provide closure and remorse or shown any signs toward it. Last point, no country is perfect, yet China seems to always get a bum rap. Something that happened 60+ years ago to them in WWII gets nullified by something they did 40 years ago to themselves when they try to protest about Japan? I know there was an attempt to separate the issues of China/Mao and China/Japan WWII, but it keeps coming up. I'll try to keep it frank, ok there's a slight hypocrisy in the whole protesting someone else's war shrine when you have your own, but that's as far as that goes. The Mao crap didn't even happen yet when Japan was brutalizing China and the Mao stuff was a backwards commie policy while the Japan stuff was happening to both Communists and Nationalists and well as other Asians. So the knee jerk reaction is to ignore complaints of non-Chinese anti-communists because the people who suffered along with them turned into communists what ended up killing themselves? Doesn't that sound offensively ludacrious?
It's so moronic to argue over whether the Holocaust or the Japanese war crimes was more horrible. Listen, both of them were as horrible to mankind as you could get. Isn't 300,000 Chinese civilians slaughtered in a few days in the Nanking Massacre horrible enough for you? The war crimes of the Japanese committed in China was every bit as evil as what the German had done to the Jews in WWII.
Yes you are making the comparison and it should be clear while it is offensive to people. You were the one who said something to the effect that the Holocaust was the greatest evil while seeming to downgrade the 30 million killed as a result of Japanese aggression saying that "there was no comparison" because in your logic "only" 4 million of those killed were of the inhumane "non-conventional" way while most were killed "conventionally". Is that not making a comparison??? Is that not tasteless and inappropriate to be making such comparisons saying one atrocity is "lesser" than another? And what exaggerating are you complaining about exactly? That 30 million were killed or that all 30 million were killed by extraordinary brutal ways. If the former, then it is no exaggeration. If the latter then you are complaining about a claim that AFAIK no one has made. Perhaps you have misread or misunderstood what has been said because I can't find this "exaggeration" that you are claiming has been made.
