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James Harden's Brooklyn Nets

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by jerryclark, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. LabMouse

    LabMouse Member

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    Ironically, I like Harden's current plays than his plays in Houston. I think his image as a player is much better than before. Morey's three point system just makes Harden look bad even although he can score lots of point, now Nets system fits him well as he was in OKC.

     
  2. LabMouse

    LabMouse Member

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    Harden was so lazy, no one is talking him being so lazy right now.

     
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  3. yoeddy

    yoeddy Contributing Member

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    But there has been no example in the past that would prove you right in the history of the MVP award, so you can't really say it's absolutely true. If NY was really that kind of an edge, I would have expected Willis Reed to win more than just the one MVP award.
     
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  4. rockbox

    rockbox Contributing Member

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    Honest question. When did the media start voting for the MVP?
     
  5. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member
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    Size of market will effect how much money a player makes, popularity, even media attention. So the thought is that, indirectly, this will somehow give them an edge in MVP voting. But I think it's hard to actually draw that connection based on the evidence. Giannis has been considered the best player in the league by many people the last couple years -- he doesn't have a super charismatic personality, he doesn't do a ton of commercials, and his city certainly isn't glamorous or big market.

    If one was to construct a predictive model of whether a player will win an MVP, I think the city in which that player plays would not at all be a significant factor.
     
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  6. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    He’s the exact same player running the same plays. There is no difference. He does pick and rolls and isolation. They will run a few more cuts here thete(because they have more talent than we ever did) but there is no change in Harden’s play style.

    His “image” is only better because he’s in a different jersey and doesn’t draw as many fouls.
     
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  7. riko

    riko Member

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    Giannis played exciting basketball. He dunked on people. Harden was ugly. That was the narrative. It’s a narrative based award.
     
  8. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Why would I expect Willis Reed to have more than one MVP Award? He is incredibly lucky to have ever won the MVP to begin with.

    There are a few places where there is a premium put on performance and where good players go when they can........ the Lakers is the primary place. NY is so starved for good basketball that anything that happens positive there is immediately met with mass attention.

    For the first time Harden is experiencing that, and he is being praised at a level that he never has before.

    Being great on a terrible team in a place like NY or LA doesn't mean much.... but being great on a really good team? Well that is a completely different animal.
     
  9. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member
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    It was the fouls, as you point out, but I think it was also the number of shots he took off isolation without really any teammate involvement. The (wrong) perception from a lot of these people was that he was an inefficient gunner, and that definitely played a role in the resentment people had towards him when he's breaking Jordan/Kobe scoring records. The way the games have gone so far with the Nets, there's no way people can see him in that light.

    I think we can point that these people were wrong to think that Harden was an inefficient, selfish gunner in Houston, while also acknowledging that Harden is doing different things as a New Jersey Net, because he has different teammates, to erase that wrong perception of him.
     
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  10. yoeddy

    yoeddy Contributing Member

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    I agree with this. And I would say that given the way media works these days with the Internet, Twitter, etc, the size of a team's local market becomes less and less important. A long time ago, playing in the NY area meant that more people saw you play because games were only available to be watched on local channels...but with NBA League Pass and the availability of streaming games out of market, the actual local market becomes less important. You can follow the Milwaukee Bucks almost as easily living in Wyoming as someone in PA following the Brooklyn Nets. Want to hear what Giannis has to say? Follow him on Twitter instead of waiting for the Wyoming Herald publishing a story about him. So these days, if Giannis makes an awesome shot, everybody sees it over and over...and his fan base grows accordingly.
     
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  11. Nook

    Nook Member

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    No, market is just one factor. What helped Giannis a lot was that the league anointed him the next great player.... he made a great story, and there was a dip without a dynasty.

    At the end of the day, being liked and being on great teams mean the most...... However, someone that is over looked like James Harden gets far more attention and when he plays well, adulation than he would in Portland or even Houston. There are a number of voters that buy into a narrative, but when they actually see the player play, and they are watching because of the market, they feel differently.

    Think of it like this, had Duncan and the Spurs played in NY, would Duncan and Pop be even more popular and viewed more favorably? Yes, yes they would.... I still hear more about Bernard King because he played in NYC than I do about George Gervin.
     
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  12. yoeddy

    yoeddy Contributing Member

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    Because by your argument, his playing in NY would give him an edge in MVP voting even if there were other players who were a little more deserving.

    As a long time Nets fan, I will tell you that the Nets have NEVER had any kind of respect by the NY media...Nets have been like the Clippers, always in the shadow of the Knicks/Lakers. Nets are getting positive coverage now because the team is a scoring machine with 3 HOF players (4 if you count the coach)...has nothing to do with being in NY.

    Yes...agree. This has everything to do with being on a really good/great team...it has nothing to do with being in NY or CA.
     
  13. ParaSolid

    ParaSolid Member

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    I agree. He’s playing in a way that we all can recognize from his days in Houston, but there are differences. He’s passing more, shooting less, and shooting less FTs.

    These changes are not total revamps of his game though, unlike what analysts are saying, so I understand HP3’s frustration with the discourse out there. I even heard Marc Spears say that he was frustrated that Harden didn’t play like this in Houston, and that we’d have won already if Harden played like this, as if that held us back. I thought that was just comical and showed how much these media members don’t know ****.
     
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  14. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member
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    OK, that makes sense. And I agree that where you play can effect your popularity.

    I guess what I'm saying is that location is one factor among many that affects popularity, and popularity is one factor among many that affects media awards. So, in the end, location becomes almost insignificant as far as media awards go. Duncan may not have been so popular, but he was well-decorated in terms of individual awards. More so than Kobe, I think, despite being a vastly less popular player.
     
    #3074 durvasa, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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  15. Loneyroy7

    Loneyroy7 Member

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    I guess it only took Harden moving to NYC to finally start being recognized as the best player in the game.
     
  16. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member
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    Yep, that's fair, and I also get that frustration (HP3's). I feel it too.
     
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  17. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    From BBRef

    [​IMG]

    So, if players still voted, Harden would have more than one MVP.
     
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  18. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    yeah that's a revamp of the team around him

    his play now is similar to his play during cp3's 1st year

    passing more = playing with guys who deserve to be passed to
    shooting less = playing with guys who deserve to shoot
    shooting less FT's = playing with a better team all around that he doesn't have to do everything by himself

    if harden had joe harris in 2018 rockets would have won even after cp3 went down
     
  19. riko

    riko Member

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    Yep and according to espn first take he is the best player on the planet. We all knew he was this it just took him getting out of Houston for the national media to see it
     
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  20. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Comments like that just reek of media protecting themselves from appearing like they flipped the narrative.

    Rockets were the only team in 2017-18 that even tried to beat the Warriors. And we attempted (imso) the only strategy that could do it.
    • You had to get a star defensive Coach who knew bleeding-edge switching defense was only way to flatten GSWs motion and cutting. This egged on teams to seek mismatches and ISO more than they were built for
    • And you needed high IQ players to do it
    • Then you had to slow the pace down as much as possible
    • And the combination of the two successfully turned the game into an ISO game by both teams, with relatively low and controlled possessions (Ball Control Offense)...and turning the game into slow-paced ISO v ISO gives Harden and Paul a fighter’s chance... bc we also had the PnR or otherwise Capela in dunker spot on drop coverage
    • This strategy made us the only team who flipped the table on Warriors and took them out of their game and made them play a different style
    That style started half-way through the 65 win season. Anyone who hates the Rockets the years after must admit that style was our 2018 playoff strategy. We adopted the offense on the fly, with Paul, Harden and MDA all in agreement

    I’m fine casuals calling that ugly ball, but I’m not so fine with how NFL media vs NBA media will explain to the casuals why a team is playing a certain way, and how it is actually brilliant, as the only means to take down that 2018 Warriors team. But that NFL-level love to analyze cutting trends didn’t happen, except guys like JVG explaining it.
     
    #3080 heypartner, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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