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James Harden's Brooklyn Nets

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by jerryclark, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Virtuous
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    NOt to mention that leaguewide, offense is way up. IIRC The 2017 Rockets were an all time great offensive squad at the time, coming in with the Warriors and the Showtime Lakers, among others as top 5 -10 ever squads in offensive efficiencty.

    That team would be...7th in the league in 2021. Because, the league got better at offense (and a lot of it is becuase they play more like Harden/Houston)
     
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  2. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member
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    Nothing has changed, except how he is playing. But other than that, nothing has changed!

    As @Easy pointed out, people are talking about two different things. When you say "nothing has changed", what you mean is "His abilities have not changed". Fair enough. But in another, more literal sense, his game has changed because he's doing very different things on the floor in embracing more of a "point guard" role for the team. You insist it's just the ratio of shots to passes. Well, that's a pretty big aspect of what defines their playing style and the enjoyment we derive from watching them. Isn't it?
     
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  3. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    it is he did that because that what he was told and thats what it took to win
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Virtuous
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    If you're a low information Harden person, you probably tweeted/posted/shared/perceived things like "dribble dribble shoot flop" - you think Harden became a much better different player over night, because he shoots and dribbles a lot less.

    If you're a high information Harden person, like many of us, you realize Harden is a freakish optimizer, and that even though his decision tree hasn't changed, his likely paths have changed dramatically from when he was playing 5 out by himself to playing with guys like Durant and Irving (also as Harden ages too(
     
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  5. rockbox

    rockbox Contributing Member

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    Nobody would have made him point guard other than dantoni. Only crazy coaches like MDA would take a top 2 shooting guard and say maybe you should play point guard. Ever since the year he haveraged 11 assist per game, I thought it was crazy that we moved him back to SG.
     
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  6. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    plus has opponents changed the way they defend harden? do opposing teams game plan for Harden alone just like they did for the rockets?

    do they still send double/triple teams to harden and let others beat them like they did to the rockets?
     
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  7. foggy94

    foggy94 Member

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    So he's playing differently. As I said.
     
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Virtuous
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    sure on a basic level he's playing in a different city for a different team with different players (other than Jeff Green) so.. you can't be wrong

    But if you watch the Harden-only lineups, like Suns-Nets that was basically 2016-19 Harden
     
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  9. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Where on the spectrum of quarterback guard to off-ball guard do you think his “game” has changed to?

    In arguing the minutiae of how a quarterback adjusts his plays to teammates and defenses, this thread has failed to remember that the initial argument always included the prediction that Harden needed to embrace more of an off-ball role and give up point guard duties.

    What has happened is that that argument was swept aside, because the casuals didn’t realize how great of a point guard Harden actually was, and the media/fans are caught in a minutiae debate over how Quarterback Harden runs plays now vs before.

    So, before debating more, consider answering what I consider the Original Question: do you think Harden has budged whatsoever on the spectrum of off-ball guard vs running-the-show guard role?​

    even the ever aware @SamFisher seems to have allowed us to forget the off-ball guard debate.
     
    #2529 heypartner, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  10. ksny15

    ksny15 Member

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    James Harden is not playing any differently. This is his game. This has been his game for the last 5 years. No one gave a **** because of the bias against him by the media and casual basketball fans. His game has not changed.
     
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  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    When did this happen?

    Was it based on this year because he has voted for him for MVP before.
     
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  12. Zboy

    Zboy Contributing Member

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    Sure he could play this way in Houston, only watch Tucker throwing up 30+ bricks per game instead of their usual 15 or so, while clawing at the bottom of the playoff table.

    He did what he had to do for team success given its makeup.
     
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  13. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    @durvasa @foggy94

    I would respond here but it seems people have already made the rebuttals.

    The shot to assist ratio being different making him more palpable for viewers is something I just dont buy. The man has averaged over 7 assists a game since 2014. The man is scoring in the exact same manner that he has. 23 points a game is a lot, 38 points a game against the Suns, 30 against the Bucks/Orlando etc. If you had ever watched him in Houston there is literally nothing new here. He's not more or less exciting than he was before. Sure...I'll give you that his FTs are down(which is a big deal) and thats it. He's playing in a bigger market and that is first and foremost what this is about.
     
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  14. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Exactly. I recalled people sucking off Luka for what he was doing in Dallas
    Which was:
    1. Basically what Harden was doing.
    2. With better more consistent shooters than we had
    3. His team was still doing worse than the Rockets.

    I saw a box score the other week where Harden had 5 blocks!! 5 Blocks!!!!
    and he always in the Top 5 or 10 in Steals and Deflections . . .. .
    By the end of this season people will start saying Kawhi should be taking points from Harden on Defense

    Honestly watch our games with him and his games now
    The basic differences is that people are knocking down shots.

    Honestly. . .. Replace House with Harris
    Harden - Wall - Harris - Tucker and Wood would be Top 3 in the Western conference.
    Replace Tucker with Uncle Jeff and we are top 2

    Am I Lying?

    Rocket River
     
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  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    No he is not playing differently, his game is the exactly the same, he just gets easier shots and has more confidence in his teammates.

    What about his game that has changed?
     
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  16. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Great Point
    That will be the crazy thing. . . Harden wins a chip . .. . the profile of the past Rockets teams will rise as well

    Rocket River
     
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  17. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    He played point for okc a lot of times.
     
  18. SamFisher

    SamFisher Virtuous
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    Look at the Allen Iverson rehabilitation.

    He gets a lot of love these days - way more than Tim Duncan or Shaq, his nominal ring laden contemporaries - but he was *NOT* afforded this level of appreciation as a player, where he was basically treated as a disgrace, a punch line, and a symbol of his generational inferiority to the league's Jordan peak.

    Harden will probably be remembered a lot more fondly than when he was playing.
     
  19. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    I don't think the debate has ever been whether Harden should be an off ball guard. It is whether he should add some off ball wrinkles to his game. That's a huge difference. Do you turn your QB into a RB? Of course not. But do you want to add a few QB keepers to your play book? That's something legitimate to discuss if your QB happens to be a great runner.

    Harden has always been the de facto point guard on offense even during the McHale days. When MDA took over, one of the first things he did was name Harden the official PG and took it to the full extent.
     
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  20. vator

    vator Contributing Member

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    Yikes nobody has put it this way before. At least not that I’ve seen. People were indeed saying he needed to play off the ball more and embrace a more traditional SG role. That him failing to adjust his game in that manner was selfish. Always a dumb argument in relation to guys like Westbrook and Wall because he is better on the ball than either of them by a wide margin. Contrarily though, him being a much better shooter obviously made him a more capable off ball player, but at what expense to the offensive efficiency of the team by allowing an inferior creator create? Despite gaudy numbers that landed him a 3rd team All NBA selection, a Westbrook-centric offense was just not as good last year comparatively.

    In BKN he has continued to be primarily an on ball player because he is just quite frankly better and more equipped to do it than KD or Kyrie and probably anybody else in the NBA other than Lebron James. It maximizes everybody’s strength and it looks different because the guys he is passing the ball too are just flat out better.

    He’s a very smart guy. It’s like when Kyrie said earlier this year and I’m paraphrasing, he felt good about passing to KD and having him shoot because he’s the only player he ever played with that he felt was on his level as a shooter. Harden knows passing to those 3 guys is equal to or better than a shot he would take in an iso situation. Who on the Rockets fits that criteria? Game on the line, do you want to take your chances with a Harden step back 3 or a 28 footer from Eric Gordon, Danuel House, or Tucker off of a Harden pass. Now substitute those names with Kyrie, KD, or Harris and see if you have the same answer. I don’t.
     
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