he has better ATO% expecially when Paul went back so it's not simply he's having less turnovers because he's assisting/passing less and if you're saying he's simply scoring more that actually means he's playing more his traditional SG and actually "ceding" the ball to Crisypy Point Gawd before all the plays he had to create himself or others.. now most of the plays Cp3 creates when they're together on the court so he's lower assists is not simply he's shooting better and its obvious he's still "hero" passing/assisting/dribbling/penetrating alot gotta admit he's a more efficient passer, shooter, scorer, even defender now with another who happens to be an even better and highly efficient playmaker and 3 elite 3&D additions especially if cp3s on the court with him toether and I just hope he maintains that
Yeah, I think you're right. I looked at the numbers at nbawowy.com since Paul returned. Harden's usage doesn't change that much, but it shifts more to scoring when he's with Paul, and more to passing when he's without Paul. As one would expect.
I know you won’t give the collective group 3 point % as a whole credit for greater spacing for play making. I will take the 3pt % of Luc MaM/CP3/Tucker over Beverley/Dekker/Harrell/Lou Williams any day. The defense of Tucker and Luc has allowed Ariza to rest more defensively.....allowing his 3 pt stroke to improve almost equal to that when he was is Washington. I will check Ariza drives and play making from 16/17 with your 3 point shooters of LouW/Bev/Harrell/Dekker vs Ariza drives and play making in 17/18 with my 3 point shooters of CP3/Luc/Tucker/Harden I would refer you to my post #31 of this thread on “wide open” shots. I’m guessing you equate it to “play makers”. What came first the chicken or the egg argument. Did play making create more space......or more space create better more efficient play making. You and I will disagree. Probably falls somewhere in between. But CP3 has mainly played in basically the last 11.
@basketballholic You have to understand that with top 5 defense the Rockets are running and getting out in the fast break more often since they are not taking it out from under the rim inbounding....like last year. Most people wouldn’t call Kevin Love a play maker; but he can throw the ball down the court to an open guy at the 3-point line at the far end. Every Rocket has the green light to advance the ball to an open shooter. Spacing not created by so-called play makers.....just players.
he didn't have many bad passes at all but people who only look at the TPG stat don't know the real stat that tells the true story of whether a player turns the ball over a lot when he has it turnover percentage is the true stat
This ^^^ That's is one of the best barometers of his improvement, he has to take less bad passes now that CP3 is here and the turnovers are way down. His individual defense and general standing around on defense is still the biggest weakness of the team. He needs to rotate and box out the center when the our center doubles or comes out on picks. Like CP3 said the regular season is about habits, no one cares if you win 70 games its about playing the right way so you know how to perform in the playoffs.. and were not there yet. We need to be more spurs like on D... wishful thinking??
Meh I don't buy all that. I don't think Harden was in the business of recommending teammates based on how much he would hold the ball or control the player. I think maybe he didn't like the fit, and I also think it likely he - like most non-scouts - is not a good judge of talent. Not a big deal. I don't think it could have been anyone. Harden had to have been ok with it for the chemistry to work so it doesn't make sense to say he could've had a great playmaking teammate. That player wouldn't be great if Harden wasn't on board.
I've seen him make layups and even a jumper this year. He's having a fantastic year! But onto Harden...I'd venture to guess that half his turnovers last season were from those throw ahead passes. I've seen very very few of those this season, hence less turnovers.
Harden had 3 bad pass turnovers a game last year and over 50% of his turnovers were bad passes. This season he's down to 2 bad pass turnovers a game. And if Paul stays healthy Hardens bad pass turnovers will decrease down to around 1.5 a game. Turnover pct.? He's down to around 14% this season from 20% last season. In the 12 games Paul has played Harden has averaged less than 3.2 turnovers. By the way, our team turnovers are basically the same as last year. No significant differences except.....type of turnovers. Bad pass turnovers (The Worst Kind) are down almost 2a game when Paul plays. Deed ball turnovers (ball out of bounds/offensive fouls/stepping out of bounds) are higher leaving our turnovers at the same average. Turnovers are not the same. Bad pass turnovers are turnovers that the other team steal and take the other way in a hurry. Those are down significantly. And it is DIRECTLY CORRELATED to Paul handling the basketball and James not handling the basketball as much.
@basketballholic 16/17 Lou Williams (w/Houston) Dekker Beverley Harrell (scratched because he shot like 0.1 attempts per game) =34.1% from 3 on 12.3 attempts per game 16/17 Luc MaM Tucker (total 3 pt ....not just Suns and not just Raptors-combo of both) CP3 =38.7% from 3 pt line on 11.9 attempts per game
Dude. Lou Williams is shooting as many 3's as Tucker and LMM combined and hitting them at 40%. His three point shooting with Houston was way off last season. They're not better shooters than Lou Williams.
his turnover percentage was 19.5 last season. Most of Stockton's career, his turnover percentage was over 20. Only 2 seasons did he have a lower turnover percentage than Harden's last season
Turnover percentage is a function of possessions used. Guys that don't shoot the ball a lot like Harden does will show a TOV as high or higher than he does. That does not mean they are add turnover prone as he is. Individual TOV% is useless for playmakers that aren't scorers and very misleading even for scorers. A bad pass turnover is a game event and is almost a three point spread. They are very costly to a team.
Aren’t we talking about the spacing last season vs this season!! Dude!! Why would I use Lou Williams with Clippers this year and his 28 USG%? I’m going to use Lou Williams with last years Rockets and his 25 USG% to show the Rockets spacing. It’s not my fault his 3 pt% dropped to 31.8% on 5.6 3PA ‘s with Houston. No one can win a debate with you because you constantly move the goal line. We were talking about the 3P% of each group of: Dekker/Bev/Lou Williams vs this years Rockets of Luc MaM/Tucker/CP3. Their 3-pt attempts were equal from last yr to this year . You can fool others but you can’t fool me. The topic of the thread is less turnovers.....and you cry about bad passes. Bad passes come with less spacing. Your BS is dumb. I showed in post #31 that the Rockets have greater spacing this year in “wide open shots” which equates to less turnovers; which includes “bad passes.” CP3 has played in 12 games while the Rockets have played 26 games. So this CP3 as a play maker as the difference doesn’t hold water. The spacing which i mentioned is the constant in this equation. Spacing for 26 games.
Here's some more stupid kooky stuff. In the 12 games Paul has played the Rockets have went 204/500 from three. That's 17/41.67 a game for 40.8%. In the 14 games without Paul, we've gone 212/626 from three. That's 15.14/44.71 for 44.71%. So when Paul is in there we're taking three less shots from three per game but we are hitting 2 more three point shots per game than when Paul didn't play. If Paul's added spacing were the reason here then the three point shots would be as high or higher when he plays and the makes would be even higher than they are. It's not added spacing. It's Paul's penetration and making more plays in the paint that discombobulates the defense, gets us more great looks in the paint and at the rim, while being more selective and deadly on the perimeter. Chris is first and foremost a playmaker! And he creates GREAT LOOKS both inside the paint and at the three point line for others! By penetrating and circling/criss crossing in and out of the paint with the dribble.....forcing multiple defenders out of position. That's why he is a superior playmaker to Harden. He doesn't have to force the finish. He can keep probing around with the dribble if the pnr finish or the dish isn't there. James as a playmaker simply doesn't have this elite level of playmaking. It's much easier for the defense to respond to Harden. They and all the rest of us know exactly where Harden is going. But Paul......You never know where he's going to bee-bop to on the floor. Put that in your pipe and sssssssmoke it, Geronimo.
Well Tanto, you conveniently excluded pertinent points: *Tucker was adjusting to the new system in the early month(s); concentration of defense may have affected 3PA *Luc MaM was adjusting to the new system in the early month(s). *Eric Gordon slump with the 3 point shot which affected his confidence for most of the season. Only rectified recently. Here is a fun fact for you. CP3 creates in the paint and criss crosses so well that CP3 helped EGo catch-n-shoot improve......right? Eric Gordon 17/18 “Catch-n-Shoot”: 1.8 3PM, 5.8 3PA, 31.3 3P%, 46.6 eFG% Eric Gordon 16/17 “Catch-n-Shoot”: 2.4 3PM, 6.6 3PA, 36.4% 3P%, 54.7 eFG% http://stats.nba.com/players/catch-shoot/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season So you may not want me to use Eric Gordon stats because he was in a slump....but you want to use them in your team stat composite.....don’t you? Another thing to consider is all the garbage time of 4th quarters during the CP3 time period (which coincides with Luc/Tucker/Ryan Anderson/EGo adjustments). How many were from Zhou Qi or Bobby Brown? I’ve seen even T Black shoot a 3 or two. Drives (not as ball handler in PnR): Harden (17/18): 17.7 drives, 52.8 FG%, 10.7 pts, 60.2 pt%, 14.8 ast%, 6.01 TOV% Harden (16/17): 10.7 drives, 54.8 FG%, 7.9 pts, 73.9 pt%, 13.4 ast%, 8.03 TOV% Ariza (17/18): 2.8 drives, 26.3 FG%, 0.5 pts, 18.2 pt%, 15.2 ast%, 0.0 TOV% Ariza (16/17): 3.0 drives, 44.7 FG%, 1.4 pts, 46.3 pt%, 14.0 ast%, 6.6 TOV% So Ariza did better last year driving without CP3. Before yesterday’s game Harden was: 16/17: 5.8 TOV 17/18 in games (without CP3) 5.3 TOV 17/18 all games 4.2 TOV Which could account for any additional star USG taking the ball out of Hardens hands.....not just CP3 Again account for new players adjusting to new offensive and defensive systems. Edited: original post in rush prior to taking kids to see new Star Wars movie; reviewed Harden TOV numbers from basketball-reference.com https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/gamelog/2018 Harden 16/17: 5.7 TOV 17/18: 5.2 TOV w/o CP3 17/18: 3.38 TOV w/CP3 including GSW (1st game) & last evenings game vs San Antonio 17/18: 4.3 TOV all games. Again some of the quote-unquote “bad passes” might be attributed to Tucker/Luc MaM/Black being out of position.....Capela slow start. View Capela threads with members marveling how Capela was so much better day after day after the initial 3 was of 5he season. Wrap that around your weed wacker and then set it to full throooooottle
Harden currently has the highest usage rate of his career, but the lowest turnover rate since he’s been in Houston
