James Harden just mixed Paul George like some cake mix. Lord of mercy!

Technically, even if it was a violation, it was either a carry or a double dribble, not a travel.

And it was close, but definitely callable if they wanted.

 

I can't believe these people still exist...

 

I agree with durvasa that it, in theory, matters to public perception... But in practice, it doesn't really, because fans of every team are blind homers for their superstars. In fact, if anything, Harden/Rockets fans are more "open minded" than most. Don't get me wrong, while there are plenty of Harden fanboys, Harden gets more disrespect from his own team fanbase than any player of his caliber I've ever seen.

 

There’s being a blind fanboy, there’s being disrespectful, and there’s calling it as it is independent of who you are rooting for. My sincere hope is that the majority of fans fit into the last category, but choose not to be vocal about it to avoid dealing with **** from people in the first category.

 

Clutchfans is a forum for Rockets fandom. Are there going to be fanboys? Yes. You would expect them to be here.

There are also some that are less homer. And that is certainly fine too.

I'll say this much, considering the national media's perspective on the Rockets, the OVER influence of the Bay Area Media on the national media and the hordes of clowns that disparage the Rockets.....it certainly make me less tolerant of "friendly fire" inside of this forum.

 

You're exactly right. There's nothing wrong with being a fanboy, as you long as you're tolerant of people who choose to be less homer than you.

 

The same things can be said for what James did to Kanter during the 2018 playoffs against OKC. There's no pushoff, but there's evidence, if you slow it down, of possible douible-dribble and palming the ball because he did the hesitation move that allowed him to blow by Kanter, same way as he did with PG.



What's missing in the debate in this thread is that PG tried to hook James on his move past PG, which should have been called a foul.

 

no carry

imo, you are applying your own interpretation of the rules, based upon maybe how you think the game should be played.

There is far more evidence that this is *not* a carry in the NBA right now.

• Don't you think Mitchell's set up dribble here is a carry by your definition.
• Objectively, I have to say Mitchell is in more violation on all three counts:
  • degree of "hand under the ball,"
  • length of "pause," and
  • "one point to another" distance (moving about 3' feet with hand under ball) is more egregious than Harden's
• Can you be objective enough to agree?

slo-mo of the set-up dribble

 

And vice versa.

 

LOL so the ref's and the league are fanboys now of Harden?

 

Yes, that's a carry by Mitchell. He puts his hand under the ball and stops the ball from dropping. There are NBA refs who agree with me so I don't think it's "my interpretation" of the rules. Sounds like it's more fanboys wanting their guy to be perfect and never in the wrong.

 

Well, no, it wasn't a carry.

That dribble by Mitchell was reviewed by the L2R, and the official word from the league is that was not a Discontinued Dribble -- aka a carry.

https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0021900405

So, imo, what you're going to have to do is question your interpretation of the rules vs the league. You are welcome to disagree based on how you'd like the game to be played, but you are disagreeing with the Official Word of an L2R ... and the league gives a full 48-minute version to the refs to guide them.



What I do is study the L2Rs and watch the videos, which is part of what the league wants the teams and fans to do. From the L2Rs, we learn how they interpret the rules.

 

That's a pretty good argument, heypartner. It would be interesting if Harden did this move in a period of the game that's covered in a L2M report to see how consistent they are. It's hard to rationalize that Harden's move should be a called violation when the league allows moves like the above.

 

Just because Harden cuts a crossover into an in and out, I believe the review would be same for a crossover.

As part of my fandom, I look at L2Ms vs game vids to follow the sport. This also helps me follow the players and other team’s clutch performances. I have actually seen roughly 70% of the L2Ms, and that Mitchell one is the only one so far that reviewed a Discontinue Dribble/carry. So, since we know they review them, then we also can learn from absence of review in the L2Ms, since they so meticulously review things in L2Ms.

We can look at crossovers in the last two minutes, then compare them to the L2M to see if they were even commented upon. From that standpoint, I can right now show you a crossover by Lebron and one but Butler in past 10 days that were also the same hand position (or worse) than Harden.

They were neither called, nor put in L2M report.

 

Well I'll be damned. I would never had thought that was legal and figured it was just a missed call. So yeah, Harden's move is legal if that is legal.

Why didn't you post this before? Also, it's odd that some former NBA refs saw Harden's move as a carry. It appears that the rules probably aren't that clear on these kinds of "edge" cases

 

Nice! As many of us stated, no violations in that move. Great post @heypartner

 

The gather happens in the first picture, and then two steps happen in the next two pictures. Obviously players are allowed a gather-1-2 step as we have known in the NBA the entirety of its existence. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

It seems like you're arguing that the official rules don't allow a gather step. If Harden traveled in that instance, than every single player in the NBA travels all the time. So either accept that it's a legal play, or accept that the NBA never calls it for whatever reason.

 

I think the league has a certain way to interpret it, but Mitchells hand - the majority of it appears to go below the 180 degree both semi-sphere which should make it a carry. That's the way the rule was always explained to us.

Most of his hand is below that plane - I'm shocked the league doesn't call that a carry. Now I don't know what a carry is anymore.

That said, maybe it's not that surprising. I mean Durant and other players get away with putting their hand under the ball when they pull up and it's never called.

 

rule is hand under the ball AND ball paused or ball moved

so it maybe true that the refs agree that the hand was under the ball

but they would have to see enough time that the ball paused or enough distance that the ball moved

 

Mitchell clearly has his hand under the ball, and he changes the direction of the ball - it's no longer falling at one point it is moving horizontally which means his hand is preventing the ball from falling and thus he is "carrying" the ball.

On Harden's dribble you can actually see the ball goes up into his hand and stops going up, and then he moves the ball to the side and it's again going up.

Those kinds of movements should be a carry to me but the NBA obviously disagrees.