Yes, you're definitely correct that schools are at capacity and that a shuffling of students would have to take place, but doesn't it seem insane that these lesser schools continue to exist even though their practices haven't improved? Why not give an opportunity for students to get a better education if they so wish? I would love to see a burst of education money go to the better public schools for additional seats/teachers to be added. Then I would think you'd have enough additional spots for students to at least have a chance at improving their circumstances. Obviously quite a bit of this equation is being left out when we don't discuss the parents. I'm actually for parents being punished when their children aren't doing as the school system has requested.
Good question - I got a bit off topic with the whole voucher thing, but I'm not actually opposed to the voucher system. I just don't think it solves the core problem - I feel that the pro-voucher argument generally believes that it will solve the education problem. I think it has some benefits and does some nice things, but it's not the core ingredient to fixing our education problems. We have to fix public schools as a whole for that.
To me . .the PRO VOUCHER thing comes out as it will solve the problem for MY KID . . . ***** THE REST OF THEM KIDS Rocket River
How do parochial schools compare with public schools? From my reading they generally have much higher graduation rates and college graduation rates, smaller class sizes, and at a lower per student costs. Is that inaccurate? As for self selecting, the ability of the school to remove students for poor behavior seems like it would be of great benefit to the other students in attendance. Likewise the ability to remove poorly performing teachers without worrying about tenure or teachers' unions. In a public school everyone is stuck with the people they happen to live near and the teachers that managed to get through the probationary period. Anecdotally (the best kind of evidence ), I know the parochial schools where I was from all had much better academic reputations than the public schools. I went to one of the city's better public grade and middle schools but a parochial high school and the difference seemed significant. There were no admission standards that I can recall, anyone could attend that paid the tuition and even financial aid was available. Of course, the parochial schools did not have the resources to offer things like shop classes, but they performed better in the general study areas.
So what do you do with those students no one wants? Just put them in prison and save everyone the time and effort? Rocket River
Why will there be students no one wants? When the money follows the student instead of a government school monopoly, an entirely new competitive market place will be born.
How would the transportation system work under the voucher system? I'm prov voucher as long as there is an ability for a kid wanting go to a school get transported there. If I remembered correctly, mandated integration of blacks and whites failed in the South because the busing system doesn't work when you have all your whites in the suburbs and blacks in the ghetto. If the voucher system doesn't come with a valid public transportation method (or atleast busing for the kids) then we'd be stuck with the way things are and is just subsidizing private school, which is an even worse option than today.
No - I suspect that's fairly accurate. But they can do so because they only have to educate the "easy-to-educate" students. I fully agree on teacher unions and the control there. But removing students for poor behavior is great for the individual school. But again, that kid has to go to school SOMEWHERE. And the voucher system ignores that - some school is going to have to deal with him, and that school's performance is still going to be penalized. Yes - but look at who was at the school. The only people that were there were kids of (1) parents who could afford it and (b) parents who cared enough to send their kids to it. Both of those things are predictors of academic success (good parenting, parents with means). So yes, the school did better - but the kids who are most likely to be do poorly were self-selected out of the school. If you have vouchers, and the bad kids are able to go to the school, they would have the same performance problems public schools have. If they aren't, then the public school still has to deal with it. Either way, you haven't addressed the problem that the kids that end up going to school with him are going to be dragged down. All vouchers do is reorganize people to different schools, but it doesn't help educate the ones that require more effort. And just looking at how private companies operate, if they are getting $x per kid, they are going to only want the kids that require the fewest dollars to educate. That means the public schools will get stuck with the kids that require $2x to educate, but they only get $x to do it.
Instead of busing the kids to the GOOD SCHOOLS Why not simply move the GOOD SCHOOLS to wheere the kids are i.e. FIX THE SCHOOLS VOUCHER will turn in to was subsidies for the Rich People who were already sending they kids to private school will simply use the voucher to pay for the private school which of course will make the public school system even poorer. As for the money FOLLOWING the student When you get to the student no one wants. . . you will have school that are literally being paid to TAKE THEM OFF OUR HANDS aka. . . HOUSE THEM UNTIL THEY ARE 16 AND THEN THEY CAN LET THE PRISON SYSTEM TAKE OVER FROM THERE Rocket River Rocket River
Thats not how the private sector works. Do bad restaurants stay in business because all the good restaurants are full? No, bad restaurants get replaced with better ones. If some good school had too many kids applying then they can handle, then they would expand or open up another school (same as a restaurant). Businesses just don't turn away customers, they find ways to accommodate them.
The closest thing we have to a private market in the US anymore is the food industry. It's also the best run industry in the country. American food is cheap, fast, delicious, and Americans have tons of options. Americans experience with private sector is the same as it is for every country; it is better at giving the customer what it wants. People just can't help themselves in telling others what to do and how to behave so they ignore these facts and regulate every market.
Restaurants also do not need to customer-discriminate. A customer pays $x for a meal - it doesn't matter how smart they are, what their background is, etc. Education is an entirely different beast. There is an incentive to pick and choose your customers, which means customers are not treated equally. You can't provide a pure free market in education unless you don't believe that all students deserve an equal opportunity at a quality education.
Restaurants have just as much incentive as schools to discriminate. Just like with schools, if a restaurant wants to be seen as trendy or the best possible eating experience then they discriminate. Yet the lower class is very happy with their food selection (this is my assumption). If people want a school catered to slower students or students who lack discipline then some business man is gonna offer it to them. Businesses are not gonna let people sit on their vouchers and not offer them what they want (that would be bad business). This can all be applied to restaurants as well. If people want cheap, fast, tasty food at the expense of atmosphere or health then someone is gonna offer it to them (thus fast food restaurants). If people want atmosphere, someone is gonna offer it to them (thus Flingers). If people want healthy food, someone is gonna offer it to them (thus Soup or Salad). Businesses will accommodate what there is a demand for. So if parents of dumber kids want a school catered to them then it will happen.
There is just too much that isn't thought through in this post. This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody wants schools that allow students to slouch. Even the parents who place the lowest priority on their children's education want that. Furthermore if there were enough parents who did, letting a businessman decide the students education is a stupid way to provide a good education for anyone. Your whole idea of letting businessmen provide education would hurt our nation and our students education. All that aside, there is no way that business model would work. No teacher would want to work at Johnny Businessman's School for Students Who Slouch and Are Undisciplined. In order to have teachers work there the business man would have to pay them so much money as well as any staff that no amount of vouchers would make it profitable.
OK - fair enough. Do you want that to be the case in education? Do you want the best quality education only to be available to a certain class of people? Of course some school will open up and offer them something. But at some point, it's not profitable. If you believe in the profit motive of privatization, then there's less or no profit motive to provide for the difficult kids. A student from a bad background or with behavior problems or special needs is more expensive to educate. A business has an objective of making money, meaning they want to educate students for the least possible cost. Given that every kid generates the same amount of money, every business is always going to want the kids that are cheapest to educate. At the end of the day, the result is that the students who are hardest to educate are going to be left aside, while the kids who are easiest to educate will be in-demand. You create a multitier level education system that leaves minorities, poor families, special needs children, etc behind. The whole idea behind public education - and government in general - is to provide equality in services where financial motives don't necessary dictate equality. It's the same reason we don't privatize fire or police services such that if you pay more, you get better response times or more responsive police. As a nation, we try to encourage social mobility rather than trying to lock people into different classes.
If your kid can't handle a tough school then yes parents would look for a slower passed school. You seem to be pissing the general theme of the post, which was that a private sector provides what the customers want. A business man doesn't decide. The parents do. Read previous post if you are confused about the voucher system. Oh rly? how the hell do you know. Have you created a business model for disciplinary schools?
He is talking about Restaurants . . . like Taco Bell where they serve stuff that may or may not be meat. I wonder if they will make teachers work for TIPS so they can only pay them 2.18 and hour. Because. . it is ok if some folx get STEAK and others get whatever that is at TACO Bell. HE ASSUMES that poor folx like eating only what they can afford. They have NO DESIRE for better QUALITY FOOD. I think the internet meme here is. . . WOW! JUST WOW! Rocket River
A crack w**** would have the same number of options for her kid as everyone else. The rich would get the same voucher as the poor. We are talking about parents with slower children, not less wealthy parents.
We have the FDA because back in the day . . .people ate whatever companies were putting all kinds of crap in front of them. Also . . the Customer wants to drink and drive. . but that is not exactly healthy Sometimes what the customer WANTS is not was is GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY or even for the CUSTOMER [See Crack Addicts] Have you? I know that . . . for discipline students you have to alot for metal detectors and more security That is a cost that the easy to educate kids would not incur and that is just for starters off the top of my head. Rocket River
If you believe that . . there is a bridge in brooklyn I wanna sell you. 1. Private school would say they charge 5000 a semester. The Voucher is 2500. The Rich are getting a coupon for the Private school and the Public school system is 2500$ poorer. 2. Private school sees Crack w**** . . says we don't want YOUR KIND HERE . . . she is on her *ss with the kid in hand. [will you force the school to take her kid? If so How?] 3. Private School could take her voucher and her kid . .and sit him in a corner for 8 hours a day. If you think FRAUD in testing is a problem now. . . wait until the school have a TRUE ECONOMIC INCENTIVE TO LIE . .. WWWHHHOOOOOAAAAA NNEELLYYY!! Or will have money to add to more supervision of schools. . . where will this money come from???? Rocket River
