I think he's got a case as having the best arm. That's it. Pete Rose has the most hits of any player ever, yet he has no case as the best player ever does he? But yes, Rodriguez has had a very strong arm at C, and he has supplemented it by hurting his pitchers, calling for excessive fast balls up so he could throw runners out. (This is a well documented story fwiw) Edit: And All-Star games and Gold Glove totals are meaningless in this discussion. The media picks gold glove winners and are terrible at it, and the fans pick all-stars and are terrible at it.
In baseball, of all sports, quantifiable statistics are pretty meaningful. And he's got alot of those quantifiable numbers. I'm not saying that your observations aren't true. I'd bet there are pitchers that enjoyed working with Pudge, all the same. I do know that he's caught 2 no hitters, won an MVP award, and a World Series. He helped turn a bad Detroit club into a winner. If he was as big a cancer as you make him out to be, I doubt he'd have lasted as long as a catcher as he has.
Not to derail the thread, but who do you have ahead of Clyde? I've got him solidly in my top 5. ESPN put him at 6, but I think Iverson over Drexler as a shooting guard is ridiculous. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs
Though prior to this year, projecting Iverson out into the future looked a lot more solid than it does right now.
Absolutely. But he's not number 1 in the majority of quantifiable statistics, and the one where he is number 1 is the least important. I don't mean to make him out to be a cancer or imply he wasn't a good player, because neither statement would be true. He was a fantastic player, and I think you can definitely argue he is top 5 of all time. I don't think you can reasonably argue he's best catcher of all time anymore than you could argue Pete Rose is the best player of all time.
Pete Rose made the MLB All-Century Team, he is one of the greatest players of all-time. So if all those All-Star selections are useless, PLEASE tell me who deserved to be ahead of Pudge while he was in his prime in the A.L.
I won't say all of his all-star nominations in general were worthless because I don't know. However, he made it in 2007 with an OPS+ of 85 ahead of Joe Mauer (137) and Kenji Johjima (101). In 2006 he made it (97) over Victor Martinez (121), Jorge Posada (122), Kenji Johjima (103). In 2005 he made it (94) over Posada (109), Mauer (107), Victor Martinez (130). I quit there because prior to that he was having above average years and I don't feel like searching. All that side, I'm not arguing he wasn't an all-star or that he isn't a great catcher, just that he isn't arguably the best ever. His gold gloves are meaningless as the award is meaningless in general.
Looks pretty good... I just wish it was this: Kaz Pence Berkman Lee Tejada Wigginton Bourn Pudge and I hope it's this: Oswalt Rodriguez Hampton Ortiz Capellan I just fear that Moehler is going to struggle big time as a starter despite his relative success as a starter last season. He's not Jamie Moyer.
Why worry about Moehler at 37, but not Hampton at 36? At least Moehler can stay relatively healthy, and his numbers last season were better.
It is really odd to me that people are worried about Hampton and Mohler, but penciling in Ortiz as some sort of a sure thing. Compared to the other two, he has all of the injury downside of Hampton, and all the reversion-to-crappiness downside of Mohler. That's twice the crappiness potential in one individual. I would place much better odds on either Hampton or Mohler turning in a solid, above average season than Ortiz.
Exactly -- the fascination with Ortiz and the eagerness to pencil him into the rotation baffles me. I'm guessing it's because they know his name? Whatever it is, there's not much logic to support it. Like you said, he's been hurting every bit as much as Hampton, except he's also been absolutely dreadful (unlike Hampton) in the limited time he's been on the mound. He's been injured and an abysmal pitcher since 2004... I don't expect this to work out. I'm expecting Hampton, Moehler and Capellan to start the year.
LOL Now I feel bad that I wasted my time responding to you at all. If I had known you were "that kind of poster."
Hopefully Pudge and Tejada find the Fountain of HGH(youth) this year and bring Backe along for the trip so we can win the division this year. Oops did I say that. My bad.
You know nothing about baseball. Your knowledge is very limited to say Pudge is not not worthy of his All-Stars or Gold Gloves. He is one the greatest defensive catchers of all-time. And you said his Gold Gloves are meaningless? Wow. No one was better than Pudge when he was with Texas in the A.L. Not even close.
K Find me where I said he isn't worthy of his All-Stars or Gold Gloves... (Hint, you won't find it. I said the awards are a worthless way to judge a player because the people who vote for them don't do very good jobs. He was definitely worthy of awards throughout his career.) Once again, I have acknowledged how stout he was defensively in his prime, at least at throwing out runners. Gold Gloves are meaningless as a tool to judge a player though. Case in point, Derek Jeter has three and has ranged between the worst shortstop in the AL and average defensively throughout his career. Raffy Palmeiro won a GG at 1st starting only a handful of games at the position. Andruw Jones won gold gloves after he got fat and slow. Omar Viz was winning them well past his defensive prime. Adam Everett never sniffed one. Adrian Beltre was routinely snubbed despite playing the best third base in the league multiple years running. Eric Chavez won it despite back injuries that kept him from having any range for a few years. And on and on the list goes... There were several years where that is an absolutely true statement, but I never contested it. You find me a post where I said Pudge wasn't a fantastic player, a HOF, one of the best of his generation, etc. and I'll put ryan17wagner is the king of clutchfans in my signature for the rest of my life. If you take the time to look however, you'll see I've only contended he isn't the SINGLE GREATEST catcher of all-time. I've agreed he's likely a top 5 catcher of all time, which is pretty high damn praise to bestow on any player at any position.
