1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Ivan Rodriguez Signs

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by rmoreno, Feb 15, 2009.

  1. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,806
    Likes Received:
    39,565
    I think he's got a case as having the best arm. That's it. Pete Rose has the most hits of any player ever, yet he has no case as the best player ever does he?

    But yes, Rodriguez has had a very strong arm at C, and he has supplemented it by hurting his pitchers, calling for excessive fast balls up so he could throw runners out. (This is a well documented story fwiw)

    Edit: And All-Star games and Gold Glove totals are meaningless in this discussion. The media picks gold glove winners and are terrible at it, and the fans pick all-stars and are terrible at it.
     
  2. SamCassell

    SamCassell Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    8,878
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    In baseball, of all sports, quantifiable statistics are pretty meaningful. And he's got alot of those quantifiable numbers.

    I'm not saying that your observations aren't true. I'd bet there are pitchers that enjoyed working with Pudge, all the same. I do know that he's caught 2 no hitters, won an MVP award, and a World Series. He helped turn a bad Detroit club into a winner. If he was as big a cancer as you make him out to be, I doubt he'd have lasted as long as a catcher as he has.
     
  3. Tb-Cain

    Tb-Cain Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 1999
    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes Received:
    64
    Not to derail the thread, but who do you have ahead of Clyde?

    I've got him solidly in my top 5.

    ESPN put him at 6, but I think Iverson over Drexler as a shooting guard is ridiculous.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs
     
  4. kaleidosky

    kaleidosky Your Tweety Bird dance just cost us a run

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,084
    Likes Received:
    1,352
  5. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,806
    Likes Received:
    39,565
    Absolutely. But he's not number 1 in the majority of quantifiable statistics, and the one where he is number 1 is the least important.

    I don't mean to make him out to be a cancer or imply he wasn't a good player, because neither statement would be true. He was a fantastic player, and I think you can definitely argue he is top 5 of all time. I don't think you can reasonably argue he's best catcher of all time anymore than you could argue Pete Rose is the best player of all time.
     
  6. ryan17wagner

    ryan17wagner Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,044
    Likes Received:
    72


    Pete Rose made the MLB All-Century Team, he is one of the greatest players of all-time. So if all those All-Star selections are useless, PLEASE tell me who deserved to be ahead of Pudge while he was in his prime in the A.L.
     
  7. Fulgore

    Fulgore Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Messages:
    16,384
    Likes Received:
    15,163
    Kaz
    Pence
    Berkman
    Lee
    Tejada
    Pudge
    Blum
    Bourne
    Oswalt
     
  8. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,806
    Likes Received:
    39,565
    I won't say all of his all-star nominations in general were worthless because I don't know.

    However, he made it in 2007 with an OPS+ of 85 ahead of Joe Mauer (137) and Kenji Johjima (101).

    In 2006 he made it (97) over Victor Martinez (121), Jorge Posada (122), Kenji Johjima (103).

    In 2005 he made it (94) over Posada (109), Mauer (107), Victor Martinez (130).

    I quit there because prior to that he was having above average years and I don't feel like searching. All that side, I'm not arguing he wasn't an all-star or that he isn't a great catcher, just that he isn't arguably the best ever. His gold gloves are meaningless as the award is meaningless in general.
     
  9. ryan17wagner

    ryan17wagner Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,044
    Likes Received:
    72

    Thanks for proving to me your very limited baseball knowledge.
     
  10. Chamillionaire

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,792
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    only 1 year though, i wish it would have been longer, at least 2-3 years at 1.5 million yer
     
  11. BrooksBall

    BrooksBall Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2007
    Messages:
    20,568
    Likes Received:
    256
    Looks pretty good... I just wish it was this:

    Kaz
    Pence
    Berkman
    Lee
    Tejada
    Wigginton
    Bourn
    Pudge


    and I hope it's this:

    Oswalt
    Rodriguez
    Hampton
    Ortiz
    Capellan

    I just fear that Moehler is going to struggle big time as a starter despite his relative success as a starter last season. He's not Jamie Moyer.
     
  12. SamCassell

    SamCassell Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    8,878
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Why worry about Moehler at 37, but not Hampton at 36? At least Moehler can stay relatively healthy, and his numbers last season were better.
     
  13. BrooksBall

    BrooksBall Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2007
    Messages:
    20,568
    Likes Received:
    256
    Yea, maybe you're right. We'll see.

    I'm more worried about Hampton's health than his pitching.
     
  14. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    18,391
    Likes Received:
    13,810
    It is really odd to me that people are worried about Hampton and Mohler, but penciling in Ortiz as some sort of a sure thing. Compared to the other two, he has all of the injury downside of Hampton, and all the reversion-to-crappiness downside of Mohler. That's twice the crappiness potential in one individual.

    I would place much better odds on either Hampton or Mohler turning in a solid, above average season than Ortiz.
     
  15. Malcolm

    Malcolm Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,190
    Likes Received:
    34
    Astros signing Pudge is huge now all they need is to sign 3 starting ptichers and they can compete
     
  16. The Cat

    The Cat Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    20,802
    Likes Received:
    5,255
    Exactly -- the fascination with Ortiz and the eagerness to pencil him into the rotation baffles me. I'm guessing it's because they know his name? Whatever it is, there's not much logic to support it. Like you said, he's been hurting every bit as much as Hampton, except he's also been absolutely dreadful (unlike Hampton) in the limited time he's been on the mound. He's been injured and an abysmal pitcher since 2004... I don't expect this to work out. I'm expecting Hampton, Moehler and Capellan to start the year.
     
  17. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,806
    Likes Received:
    39,565
    LOL

    Now I feel bad that I wasted my time responding to you at all. If I had known you were "that kind of poster."
     
  18. Ron from the G

    Ron from the G Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    77
    Hopefully Pudge and Tejada find the Fountain of HGH(youth) this year and bring Backe along for the trip so we can win the division this year. Oops did I say that. My bad.
     
  19. ryan17wagner

    ryan17wagner Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,044
    Likes Received:
    72

    You know nothing about baseball. Your knowledge is very limited to say Pudge is not not worthy of his All-Stars or Gold Gloves. He is one the greatest defensive catchers of all-time. And you said his Gold Gloves are meaningless? Wow.

    No one was better than Pudge when he was with Texas in the A.L. Not even close.
     
  20. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,806
    Likes Received:
    39,565
    K

    Find me where I said he isn't worthy of his All-Stars or Gold Gloves...
    (Hint, you won't find it. I said the awards are a worthless way to judge a player because the people who vote for them don't do very good jobs. He was definitely worthy of awards throughout his career.)

    Once again, I have acknowledged how stout he was defensively in his prime, at least at throwing out runners. Gold Gloves are meaningless as a tool to judge a player though. Case in point, Derek Jeter has three and has ranged between the worst shortstop in the AL and average defensively throughout his career. Raffy Palmeiro won a GG at 1st starting only a handful of games at the position. Andruw Jones won gold gloves after he got fat and slow. Omar Viz was winning them well past his defensive prime. Adam Everett never sniffed one. Adrian Beltre was routinely snubbed despite playing the best third base in the league multiple years running. Eric Chavez won it despite back injuries that kept him from having any range for a few years. And on and on the list goes...

    There were several years where that is an absolutely true statement, but I never contested it. You find me a post where I said Pudge wasn't a fantastic player, a HOF, one of the best of his generation, etc. and I'll put ryan17wagner is the king of clutchfans in my signature for the rest of my life. If you take the time to look however, you'll see I've only contended he isn't the SINGLE GREATEST catcher of all-time. I've agreed he's likely a top 5 catcher of all time, which is pretty high damn praise to bestow on any player at any position.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now