You want facts? Durvasa already shot your very lame argument down in his very first post. Your whole contention is that LBJ actually makes his teammates worse. The facts that Durvasa posted proved otherwise. Why don't you disprove that first before you do anything else?
Lebron doesn't make all players better, you have to compliment him well for him to be effective with you . Thats why people who don't understand basketball is about cohesion above all else and think that if you put lebron on the lakers they would be a perfect fit or with wade, lebron's game a you know his bread and butter is being able to rough his way in adn drive in, thus creating for others when defense collapse, so you need people who can shoot to surround him to get the best players for him . That's why mo williams, delonte, anthony parker, even big z, guys who can space the court for them, yes they have off days, but thats the nature of the game. So lebron could take krover and make him much better, but if your talking about jamison, wade, someone who can do more and needs the ball in their hands to also work, that wouldn't be a good fit. So lebron on the lakers which is in the triangle so less possessions for him means his stats go down, and then you have bynum who can't shoot, and paul who is better with the ball in his hands but he can shoot and do toehrs so he would be fine, it wouldn't be a great fit. So they do get open shots, but people who can do more would be limited with lebron since he is not great off the ball and needs to dominate the ball to be effective.
Anyone who uses all nba teams or even mvps to say this is why one player is better than another its just not a valid argument, the awards are voted by the media, who have their biases and favorites. Just look at the coverage after lebron's loss. There are actual media true hoop having posts after post defending lebron and sayin why are you getting mad, I have seen many players get critisized, no player is hated on more than Kobe, yet I have never seen the media get defensive about him if there is wide criticism its the nature of being considered great....and they ocul do coverage for conference finals and championships which are still on! yet they choose to set the standard and attention on what lebron is going to do months from now..its really absurd, he has a hell ofa marketing team Ill say that
Why do the Chinese like Kobe so much? Do they use their propaganda machine to promote him? If you search for "Kobe" in google in China, does it only show his few big moments without pointing out that he only got them by hoisting dozens of bad shots down the stretch of EVERY close game (see, eg, the OKC series)? The guy is an overrated chucker whose "legacy" is nothing but a product of dominant big men and media hype. The fact that you have to put down LeBron to try to prop your guy (unsuccessfully) shows your insecurity over his own accomplishments.
LeBron made any player that needs the ball to be effective worse. And most star players need the ball to be effective. Every player not named LeBron is asked to be tough defender and good 3pt shooter. Of course not many of them fit.
what do you have against lebron? he's the best player in the NBA (a lot of legends, analysts, and fans think so). he's a 2-time MVP (by a large margin both years) he's a 1st team all-nba, including defense (so he tries on both ends of the court) he has improved every year and bring something new to his game (which shows his dedication and passion). he's a great teammate (look at the fun and comraderie on the cavs) he's a great ambassador for the NBA (never in legal troubles...) the only thing against him is he hasn't won a championship. and that's not something easy to do. he has failed to do that so far so it's fine if people want to criticize that. but he's 25 years old and probably will have 8-9 years of great play left, so he has plenty of time to achieve that. but to say he doesn't make his teammates better? his team better? and that the cavs (i'm assuming this b/c your post claims it's tough to be his teammates -> tough to play with him) are better off with another franchise player? that's just absurd. you can hate the guy for being a loser so far in his career, or that he can be too cocky at times. but to make the claim you're making when all he has done is put the cavs on the map, and making guys better than they are. mo will would NEVER even think about becoming an all-star if he didn't play with lebron james. and he's NOT even a legit all-star player throughout his career. you can't blame him for his teammates failing to show up in the playoffs. that's like blaming tmac and yao for rafer's suckiness b/c he needs to the ball do what he does (and he needs the ball or else he does jack). or that's like blaming dwayne wade for not giving the ball to beasley (why? b/c he is subpar). are you even serious? you must REALLY hate lebron.
The problem here is that you have not shown that LeBron made these players "worse". None of your examples show that. First of all, you completely ignore team context things like how the player fits into the coach's offensive/defensive schemes and how many minutes he's getting in the rotation. All of that has an impact on a player's stats, and its disingenuous for you to ignore that and pin it all on one player. Second, you ignore other external factors like age (a player in his mid-30s is expected to decline) or guys playing for a contract the year before and becoming dogs once they get it (Larry Hughes) or players being injured. And finally, if you want to argue that PPG, RPG, APG, etc. is enough to determine that a player is less effective, then you've already defeated your own argument. LeBron has the best boxscore stats in the league, so he must therefore be the best by this logic.
All Kobe-first fans hate Lebron because they are under this delusion that Kobe is a GOAT candidate and it's hard to back that stance when you aren't even the best player in the league. Lebron is young and at some point he will likely start racking up titles (much like MJ did at about the same age); at that point the Kobe jockers will have no ammunition because the only thing Kobe is better than Lebron at right now is having good teammates to win titles. In any objective measure, Lebron has already surpassed him. And that kills these idiots.
i like lebron, but i also like kobe (well i respect him a lot). i don't know why NBA fans hate certain great players. why can't we all respect and applaud greatness? kobe has been and will continue to be a great player. he will go down as possibly a top 5 player of ALL TIME. think about that. that's a ridiculous achievement. i personally think lebron will end up AT LEAST as a #2 player (but that's a projection) b/c he is still so young, and already is so good. it won't surprise me if he ended up winning 5+ MVPs and all the other accolades. but we will see if he wins multiple championships. that's the only knock against him right now.
First off i really really hate Lebron and Kobe since this seems to be what its about. The difference is i respect Kobe's attitude, his dedication to the game which leads to his immensly talented skill level that is quite a bit ahead of the next best. The way his finesse game has evolved clearly gives Lebron something to aim for but Lebron is a (doing my best not to curse a million insults). To an extent he hasnt had to think about it because his blessed with this body. Lebrons diva attitude on and off the court really really gets to me. He makes everything about him increasing his already huge ass ego. Mind you all superstars have huge ego's but the way he acts at home games the basketball is fun but ultimately your goal is to become the best and you do that by constantly striving to improve your game and the game of others. Truly watch Lebron 06-07 and lebron 09-10 the skill level and level of play is almost identicle. He still has barely any finesse skills in his game. He keeps putting the attention himself on and off the court because he loves the spotlight and because he knows he is the best in the game right now but he neverthinks about his weaknesses, he is shortsighted and enjoys the attention. At the moment based from a basketball he doesnt have anywhere near the talent kobe had in his prime. His jumpshot is horrible, he has no post game and his midrange game is non-existent. Those are facets of his game that he should work on and work on hard. Great players dont have weaknesses or conceal them very well by making sure they work their ass off to not let it affect them. Everything i've seen from James so far shows me his impact level on a game is gonna drop immensely once he reaches the physical stage kobe is at. Lebron truly has great strenght, speed, feel for the ball and passing ability but his finesse game needs a lot of work and until he develops that his impact is going to drop with his athelthiscim. But then again this argument is useless because he is an absolute crazy beast right now and still the best player in the league probably for the next 3-5 years. This is my opinion of Lebron, I hate him not basketball related with all the diva he creates and i also hate the way he plays contributing to my overall immense hatred for him and my pleasure of seeing the Celtics play incredible team defense in winning that series. I just know if you gave Lebrons physical body to about 5 other players in the league they would do just as good if not better. Thinking and writing about Lebron pisses me off so much cause he has all the physical tools to be the greatest ever but his much more interested in making money, being a global icon etc... such a waste... noone will remember you if you dont win championships look at vince. Ihatelebron!!
I'm not a fan of LeBron's attitude either, and I've said as much in the past. The whole "Chosen One" schtick is obnoxious and annoying. I get that. But I do think LeBron is dedicated to his craft, and he works hard on improving his game. I've seen huge improvements in his skill-level from years ago to now. He still has room to grow with the outside jumper and having full confidence in it when pressure is high. But I've seen such a steady progression in his basketball abilities since his rookie season that I see no reason to doubt he will improve in that area. Does he have Kobe's dedication? Perhaps not, but then I don't know if any player ever had his dedication.
Is your hate toward Lebron mainly from your frustration with the other diva who never won a champinonship and is almost done (no, not Vince)? Let's the only way I can rationalize what you said.
LeBron is the ballhog and sucks stats out of his teammates. He has the highest usage in the league by far. He'd have good numbers, for sure, when 70%-80% of offense is LeBron 1on1 and LeBron P&R, he's going to get good assists number. You can have high assists number and still a ballhog, AI was like that, Starbury was like that. His team always underperform in playoff because the offense set is limited and predictable. The opponents can easily choose either to shut down him or his teammates. When his shots ain't falling, how do you expect their teammates to step up? They don't have the ball and if they do, they don't have practice offense set going through them. They are told to defend and hit open jumpers, essentially what a role player is supposed to do. LeBron has been in the league for 7 years and haven't figured out how to share the ball. In fact, LeBron plays for stats.
This thread is a complete and utter joke. If you want to actually be taken seriously, first express your opinions as opinions and do not try to pass them off as facts. So you dislike LBJ and feels he plays for stats. That has nothing to do with whether or not he actually does make his teammates better. That is your OPINION, hardly any fact. Also, do not try to skew numbers to try to justify your dislike for LBJ. Players number dwindle because they are no longer the focus of the offense. If Rockets bring in say Granger, I would expect Martin or AB's numbers will go down simply because there will be a different allotment of possessions. You offered the supporting evidence of diminishing production by LBJ's teammates compared to their previous productions. All that tells us is that they are producing less as they age, which is expected. This is hardly "proof" that LBJ is making them crappier. Members offered you evidence otherwise and your rebuttal is again, your personal dislike of a player. Well... news flash, your opinion doesn't mean anything to anyone save yourself unless you can support it and convince others.
Just to add further to this ridiculous thread, if what you say is even remotely true, as soon as LBJ leaves the court, the team will do better instantly. Most of LBJ's trouble comes from as soon as he steps off the court, **** hits the fan because his craps out on him, not that they don't anyways. This is not LBJ's fault. This is the fault of the coach being an incompetent idiot. However, everyone already knows Mike sucks.
This is the same argument people made against Jordan. Its the same argument people made against Kobe. When the talent improved around Jordan and Kobe, they started to win more in the playoffs. Same deal. There is a lot from my post you didn't bother to touch on. Want to try again?
Alright. Though its funny how we don't see Delonte West's numbers. Or Anthony Parker Or Drew Gooden Your Antawn Jamison example: PER 36 MINS Code: Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS [COLOR=Blue]2009-10 33 WAS[/COLOR] NBA 41 41 1595 7.1 15.8 .450 1.3 3.8 .345 3.4 4.9 .700 2.2 5.9 8.2 1.2 1.0 0.2 1.4 2.5 19.0 2009-10 33 CLE NBA 25 23 811 7.2 14.9 [COLOR=Red].485[/COLOR] 1.2 3.5 .342 1.9 3.7 .506 1.6 6.9 [COLOR=Red]8.6[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]1.4 1.2 0.5[/COLOR] 1.3 3.0 17.5 So if Jamison didnt play 6 less minutes, he'da rebounded, assisted, got steals AND blocked better? Not to mention he had his 2nd highest CAREER FG% while with Cleveland? (I'd post numbers for Mo Wiliams and Delonte West but it's a similar comparison. ) Whenever you want to mention Malone, Payton and Horace Grant is fine. Since they "willingly chose" the Robin role in LA like Artest did. While everyone else is knocked DOWN to a Robin in Cleveland.
