My kneejerk reaction when we struggle is always that Battier seems a fitting martyr. But I don't think we should trade him. 6th man is fine, but keep this guy. He is the leader of the team.
Based on interviews from people within the Rockets organization, I don't think they rely on simply quantitative analysis or framework to drive their decision making. It's a collaborative effort, with input taken from established basketball people. A lot of it is subjective, and realistically much of it has to be. The goal is to take into account as much relevant information as possible to improve the decision making process. That doesn't by any stretch mean subjective input based on film and live scouting is thrown out. That would be foolish for any organization to operate that way, and we all should know that the Rockets do not do that.
Don't worry, once you start lying directly to Durvasa, he'll see no reason to answer your questions either, you can't have a grown up conversation like that...
Just answer the questions. Do you want me to list them for you again? Stop looking for excuses and other easy ways out. Will you please just answer the questions?
You're replying to a guy who believes the team made ONE phone call in trying to shop their pick and refused to make any more calls....i guess the rest of the days and long nights they spend at the office prior to the draft is just pizza and beer. Maybe some hangman and twister too.
Answer the questions. Stop being lazy and looking for excuses. Just answer the questions. Question 1.) Since you have gone on record as saying that you specifically love Battier, is it the type of player he is that made you fall in love or is it him specifically? If it's the former and not the latter, do you love Bowen, Ariza, Posey, Pietrus, and all other guys who do the same thing he does just as much or is this a blind love just for Shane? Question 2.) Since you said that the Ray Allen and Artest trades are exceptions, how many examples of teams trading lottery picks for Battier type players can you show me or is trading a lottery pick for a role player like Shane the exception? Question 3.) You've admitted the Rockets overpaid for Battier. Whether you acknowledge it or not, that means they made a mistake by not maximizing their asset (the lottery pick). So my 3rd question to you is since the Rockets failed to "win now" with Battier, even when everybody was healthy in 2007, will you explicitly now admit that the Rockets made a mistake in trading a lottery pick for this role player? Question 4.) Why is it that Battier had more fta attempts in his 1st year with the Griz than his entire career as a Houston Rocket? Question 5.) Is it wise to give up a lottery pick for a guy who hit his ceiling sometime in college and will not improve as a basketball player anymore and will instead regress? Question 6.) What would the Rockets be able to get for Battier in a trade currently? Just like you asked me to name specific players, I'm asking you to do the same. Please keep in mind that the Rockets were a good defensive team before Battier got here. So what can the Rockets get for him? Can we get a Rudy Gay type player for him? Would Phoenix give up their late lottery pick for him? You can analyze all the hypothetical scenarios you want in your answer whether the team is young and rebuilding, a perennial lottery team, a contender, a team that had a bad season for whatever reason and missed the playoffs etc... but I do want specific players. This way we can tackle the issue of Battier's market value.
The first question you just listed you already asked in this very thread and i answered. A lot of what you keep arguing about i've answered/mentioned already. You don't even realize that we agree more than disagree when it comes to shane's play and role, you keep arguing it though, which is why it's pointless for me to keep responding. My beef is you not understanding how deals and values of players change over time, increase and/or decrease and how it's not as easy as you think to get certain players or come across super values. I didnt even like this trade when it initially happened, it's doesn't take a genius to know it wasn't equal in terms of potential/talent, but i also realized why they did it and what they were trying to accomplish. I accepted it for what it was and hoped the team would fall into place as they hoped for. Unfortunately injuries to our two "superstars" and Yao's inability to dominate started to unravel the plans they had for this team, therefore creating all kinds of holes and disappointments along the way. To complain now about the trade would be having a hindsight bias. This wasn't exactly Kobe for vlade divac, there was a plan and had it gone accordingly there's a good chance we'd have some new banners raised, all would be good and chants of "In morey/dawson we trust" would be typed all over this board. Personally, i'm not too crazy about making any move involving our current players until Tmac and Yao's issues are put to rest. They are the focal points of our offense/team and we need complimentary players around them, which for the most part i believe we have, but half a healthy year, every year, isn't going to give ANY team consistency and a chance to mesh to the fullest. We can trade shane, aaron, scola, landry, whoever, but it's not taking us to the finals if we still can't solve the tmac and yao issues, and i'm not satisified with the idea of doing it just to be stuck in the conf finals for years. Complimentary players can't compliment what they don't have. Fix Yao and tmac, including trading them/letting them walk, let's get our main guys set and then let's decide who's complimentary and who isn't.
Stop being vague and ambiguous. Just answer the questions that I listed directly and specifically. Everybody can see that you're avoiding answering them. Please just answer each and every question so we all know where you stand.
One thing I do know, when they keep bringing in people who play your position, they're looking for something. 1 yr after being beaten by utah, the rox brought in scola and landry to compete with chuck. Also, they brought back james,francis, and drafted Brooks. This past yr, they traded for artest and found wafer. So let me ask the question, would the rockets make these same moves if the had good production from shane? If shane was a consistent 14ppg who could run this offense, would artest be brought in? I know rv6 will fight this tooth and nail, but when you see guys like pietrus and ariza not only defend, but get involved in the offense, then its pretty clear we're not getting what we need out of the super role player. Not to mention, those teams have better offensive options or more efficient offensive players as is.I can overlook a lot of what shane don't do, but when u avg 5 ppg on the road or avg 8 against la with 31% fg and 26% from 3 , that's just unacceptable.
Those are two different questions. The Rockets needed a more productive offensive wing who could create his own shots. Even the staunchest Battier supporters recognized that. That doesn't mean the Rockets were unhappy with the production they got from Battier. Consider also that with Artest brought in, Adelman wanted to stick with Battier as a starter. If he was as unhappy with Battier's production as you suggest, and considering that Artest clearly preferred being a starter, it's surprising Battier didn't move to the bench. It's not like Battier was hot from the field in the early going this season, so obviously the Rockets coaches valued other things he's doing out there.
Even with a healthy Yao, this team needs more scoring. OK, so where does the scoring come from? What position? If we accept the fact that this current starting five doesn't score enough, who gets benched? Do you trade Shane to make room for Ron? If so, what could you get for Shane, and who would want a veteran role player that still has two years left at almost $6.9 and 7.4 million per? In other words, since neither Ron or Shane can be counted on for consistent scoring production, that means a new starter would put one of them on the bench, and which goes player goes to the bench, and why sign Ron to a big contract to have him come off the bench? Sorry that my post is a bit incoherent, wobbly from a dentist appointment yesterday.
Durvasa, they're trying to get more production from his spot. JR Smith comes off the bench also, but its not even a question of who is the better player between he a jones. Look, I've never said shane isn't a decent player, I just don't think he's good enough to play more than 20 mins on a championship team unless he is heavily insulated. I brought Nocioni in another thread. I'm not a betting man, but nocioni playing in a moving/motion offense would score 14 pts easy. Although he will spot up for 3's, he moves very well off the ball, can pump fake and put the ball down, and will fill the lane and finish the break. When I watch the rox games on the dvr,I'm amazed at the number of times brooks has no one to run with him. I'm also puzzled as to the lack of hard running off a turnover or missed shots with this team. Its not all Battiers fault, but he kills the breeak big time. Ron does too which is really the root cause of why thiks team struggles to score.
Denver is different. Firstly, JR Smith is a talented offensive player but shaky defender. Artest is an established 2-way player. Also, Jones as a starter averaged only 19 mpg in the regular season. Adelman was giving Battier starter minutes (around 30 mpg), even with Tracy and Artest available. I like Nocioni, but he'll struggle with quickness if he has to guard opposing wings. You could slide him over to the 4-spot, but then we're against playing small defensively which as I recall you don't particular like.
Nocioni played good defense in chicago at the 3 spot. They were top 5 in fg% without a stopper. He competes every possession, just like shane, but is a far superior offensive player. He's also a better rebounder and a yr younger. I'd take him and his gritty play any day.
Not during the minutes Nocioni played: http://82games.com/04CHI8D.HTM http://www.82games.com/0506/05CHI10D.HTM http://www.82games.com/0607/06CHI8D.HTM http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI12D.HTM Nocioni hustles and looks busy, but isn't a very effective NBA-level defender.
remember it was wafer and strawberry at the end, they wanted defense or scoring at the 2 spot, not someone to compete with shane at the 3. It was a move as insurance for tmac, i thought that's been pretty obvious since day one. Ron was a duh move, your giving up little for a near all-star and he brought more D and thoughness we didn't have. Scola/landry overtook chuck, rafer was overtaken by brooks/lowry....yet shane is still getting his minutes and a starting spot. You don't have to like shane to realize it's not the same thing. also, landry, scola, brooks and lowry are long term investments, wafer and ron are experiments one will probably end up being a rental, maybe both. and you don't know me as well as you think if you believe i dont want more scoring from shane. I've always said if we can win with him passing shots to others and they're taking care of business, then i'm fine with that, BUT i've also said if we start to lose because of it then he needs to shoot/score more, but within his limits, meaning, not driving in traffic, but instead shooting open threes, running off of picks to hit that 15 footer, cutting backdoor, etc.
Do you think we'd still need the scoring with a healthy yao and tmac? My biggest fear would be giving up defense to bring in a scorer with average or less than average D. Eventually i think Brooks will become consistent and average 15-18 per, which would open up the offense for others even more, then we'll be pretty good offensively and average defensively.. i'd rather wait and be good offensively and good defensively.
They were top 5 as a team and he played on the team. You and ur useless stats don't take into account who was on the floor with him at the time. Maybe u should spend 200 bucks, buy league pass, and watch basketball. Since u like useless stats, what was the rockets defensive rating for the first 15 games of the season when shane didn't even play. I was wondering, when one of my post come up, does it page or text u?
Here is another reason why a non basketball watcher like yourself like stats that doesn't make sense.
And Steve Novak was on the Rockets. Did that make him a good defender? Just as you claim Scola's defense looks better because he played with Yao, same can be said for Nocioni -- his defense looked OK because he played for a good defensive team. Still, when he went to a terrible defensive team in Sacramento (the WORST FG% against in the league), the defense was still better with him off the court. http://www.82games.com/0809/08SAC11.HTM#onoff You really do not understand rates.
