Do you really think Outlaw is that much of an upgrade. Lets face it, Frye is garbage. He couldnt get any minutes on a Portland team that is nowhere near as deep as we are in the front court. So lets not pretend he adds anything to this trade cuz he is not gonna play ahead of Scola, Landry or even Hayes. If anything he eats up a roster spot which hurts more then helps. Yes Outlaw would score more then Battier but his defense and leadership would not come close. I dont see how this makes us significantly better but it could make us significantly worse.
Lee, you're taking it somewhat out of context, i know i've had arguments with you nd kwame about shane in general, but i'm talking about Shane versus Kobe specifically. If its ray allen or rip, then by all means attack, those guys are scorers and can do their own damage, maybe even cancel out Kobe, but let's face it, Shane isn't going to go toe to toe with Kobe, so it doesnt make sense to me to have Shane attack Kobe and act like he's a scoring threat to him, when he's only gonna be a minor one, and that's going to fire up Kobe. It's one thing to have Kobe score 40 and rip 30, compared to Kobe 40 and shane 15. As for trading shane, i agree you keep shane if you can get an offensive player without trading him...and that's the thing, i think we definitely can, so why send shane away? shane alone isn't going to get you a big time scorer no matter what, that's why I think you only trade him if he's part of a bigger deal that's gets a big name. I think the same player we can get by trading shane alone we can also get through other minor transactions or signings. I dont think we can get offers like outlaw and frye through the league, we can still get it from portland, only because both those guys fizzled in the playoffs and their stick is down, while shane's is up. When the offer was first made all of their stocks were somewhat high and Portland wanted experience prior to going to the playoffs, i'm not sure they want it that bad now after being there, the young guys will have learned from the loss on their own.
In your defend Battier at all costs approach you have become delusional. Your cyclical arguments are getting tiresome. Turrible, just turrible. Maybe Battier can learn a thing or two from Ariza, but then again, Battier hasn't improved since he's been in the league while Ariza has.
What I'm saying is that if you're watching Denver v La, kobe has to play well for them to even have a chance. Against the rockets, when we lost, we lost big and when we won, we won big. If you look at the ganes we won or lost big, shane was either good or terrible offensively. Again, i bring up kobe vs boston and detroit of 04 to say something. When kobe has to play defense on someone , he's not as effective offensively. Against the rockets, he doesn't even hold shane. All he does is rome and get in the passing lanes and disrupts the offense. I'm not saying that he didn't play defense, he didn't play aggressive defense. I'm not sure if denver is going to win either, but they're not just making him shoot jumpers. Maybe that is the best way so the refs won't just call a bunch of fouls and send him to the line, but its not really about kobe, its about beating La. Its more about shuting everyone else down vs kobe being shut down. Just like you have said getting that other player can be obtained through minor trades, a player like shane could have also. They didn't have to give up the #8 pick and a player for him.They got david wesley who played kobe just as well for nachbar. That has always been the contention of those who rebel against shane. The value didn't meet the production. If shane didn't have to be moved to get that player, ok, but some people think he's immoveable or something.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2009051410 http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2009050810 ?
blame it on the juice, got ya feeling loose, blame it on the tron, got you in the zone, blame it on the ah, uh, uh, alca, alcahol (ic), blame it on the a, ahahahhahaa errr LOL.
Yeah but you can't dwell on that move because it didnt work out......it all comes down to management thinking he was the missing piece to the puzzle, unfortunately he wasn't, but it's shane who gets bashed as if he had full control of the trade and thought he was more than worth it. Things go up in value when they are needed, houston felt that's who they needed so they were willing to give up more to get him, hoping it would pay off with a ring...it's one of those No, no, no, YES!!! moments. Like when ron tries to take over at the end of a game, if he hits and we win, he's a hero.. but if he takes the same exact shots and misses and we lose...he's a cancer. Same thing with the move, we just missed. Is he untradeable? Well no, but there's something morey is seeing that not all of us can see, there's obviously something there, something concrete or otherwise you know he would have been on his way out a long time ago. Sometimes one person doesn't know any better, but JVG wanted him and played him, Adelman as well, Morey, Les, etc....it's not just one guy not knowing his basketball and being stubborn by keeping/playing Shane, instead of fighting it, i try to look for what they see because they can't all be wrong..
Ariza, Posey, Bowen in his prime, and now Pietrus are all better values than Battier. But in your warped reality nobody is better than the "no stats all-star."
I dont get it either...it's like when they said shane always didnt' score well when Houston lost in the playoffs against Utah...i'd look up the boxscores for the game and i'd see things like Shane 2 of 5, 4 rebs, 0 TO, 1 stl......but then I'd see Rafer 3 of 12 with 4 turnovers, and then the next losing boxscore shane again has similar numbers and i'd see yao 6 turnovers, rafer, 4 turnovers, tmac 5 turnovers...and then the next boxscore once again shane wasn't great by any means, but there were other guys you could point to as being TERRIBLE. So shane got blamed for not stepping up to bail out the guys who had terrible games. Just doesn't make sense to me, should you also blame the chef of a restaurant for not stepping up and making the food great instead of just OK, to make up for a terrible waiter, so you'r overall experience can still be positive??
They made a mistake and they know it because they keep searching, but i don't blame shane for it. The problem is the people on this board calling him untradeable. He is a good players that bings something to the table, he's just a bench guy like posey. Hell, posey had more to show with less compensation than battier and he wasnt given up for the #8 pick. On the road, you would expect the vets to play better, but the rockets had to rely on a guy with 30 starts under his belt. Not to mention that a guy like ariza ariza was traded for mo evan and cook.
yeah, me and like 99.99% of the NBA and like 90% of fans.. Answer me this......if you have two flashlights, but with no batteries, you dont feel like you can afford to waste time getting some, then someone walks up with batteries...would you trade him one of your flashlights (let's say $10 value) for the batteries you need ($5 value)? I dont think you'll ever understand how something can be more valuable to someone who needs it, than to someone who doesnt. At the time Shane was worth more to Houston. If you move that scenario to this summer, Houston doesn't trade gay away, why? Because their needs changed. Just like they arent likely to trade shane away right now, because they know where he fits, they know how everyone fits with him and they know their needs may be met by moving smaller, more insignificant pieces. Whether you like it or not that the way it works, to look back and b**** about it now is useless, to attack shane as a player because houston's gamble didnt pay off is ridiculous. You can talk about how posey or whoever with similar skills was available for less, but unless you can provide proof of it then you don't really know for sure, now do you? show me where Houston turned down a posey trade where they give up less, show me where they turned down a bowen trade while giving less, show me that and I'll agree gay for shane was a stupid move at that point in time........your problem is you THINK they were available, might as well dwell on the tmac for chauncey/prince trade since we THINK it was available too huh? At least others have a problem with shane the player, you just got a problem with a move made by management years ago and don't know who else to take it out on.
Who is the lebron stopper right now? Yet, the magic should be looking at a 3-0 advantage and he cant hide on anyone. kobe and La should also be down 2-1 without a kobe stopper. If you watch lebron have to play defense and facilitate offense, its really grinding him down.
Well, RV6... I think the thing to realize is that, especially before Daryl Morey took over as GM, Shane Battier was probably considered the third best player on the team. With that comes expectations on both offense and defense. You're right...all these coaches and GMs can't be wrong when they recognize how valuable Battier is to any team. The problem is that more was not only expected, but NEEDED from Battier. Remember, Battier was billed as the 3rd member of a Yao/McGrady core. So just like everybody takes Yao and McGrady apart when the Rockets lose...Shane Battier shouldn't escape criticism either. That's not fair to Battier, in my opinion. Battier himself has said many times that his contributions are on the defensive end of the court. Battier has been much more appreciated here because the Rockets have finally acquired DEPTH. I would much rather Battier be used situationally, like Chuck Hayes is now that there are some guys who can play his spot more effectively on offense. It's not about what Battier gives you, RV6. It's about what he doesn't give you, and how you have to make up for that somewhere else. The things you pointed out with other players shows what I mean. You need a lot from more than just one or two guys to win this time of year. Which is why, no matter how much praise you heap on somebody or how much dirt you shovel on them, only TEAMS win championships in a team sport. Not MVPs. Not scoring leaders. Not defensive players of the year. And unfortunately, not genuinely good guys like Battier, either... ...unless the TEAM gets better....
That was well said and should be understood. If shane was who they thought he was, they wouldn't have nneded to try to trade for artest. Rafer wouldnt have thought of himself as the 3rd wheel either. I haven't seen anything shane does better now than he did as a rookie. I would take the rookie shane over this guy any day. At least that guy went to the rim and attacked people and used a midrange game. Again, its not about offense only, its about picking up when people are struggling and imprinting the game. 31% fg and 26% 3pt isnt going to cut it at all.
I agree about him not playing better on the road compared to his home games...but i still think its useless to talk about how similar role players were traded for by giving up less. Ariza especially, since he was a steal because he wasn't expected to contribute like this, it's not like he had established his style of play and then was traded for peanuts. Posey had an established style, and yes maybe he did more for less, but that's not a knock on shane. That's like saying any PF like Haslem, who makes more than scola, and produces similarly, is being overpaid because there's better value out there (scola, Love, millsap). Those guys are exceptions, not the norm. Bowen was a deal because he was content where he was and not looking for much more. He settled. Posey was underpaid, that's why he was such deal, not because contributions such as his (and similar to shane's) are worth less than 6 mill (around what shane is being paid). Posey hopped around because of that reason, he was looking to be paid what he's worth, and guess what amount he settled for ? About 6 mill a season. That's what he's getting now, that's what he's worth, that's what contributions such as his and shane's are worth. So why hate on Shane because he was paid his worth all along, Posey was underpaid, and bowen settled for less? And i know you're not hating on him specifically for that, but i might as well throw it out there because i know some do.
Do you have any survey data or evidence to back this up? If 99.99% of the NBA feels this way then what do you think we can get for Battier if we trade him? So you have to resort to obscure metaphors to justify the Battier move now. Why did the Rockets need him? If it was for his defense, they were a good defensive team before he got here. As I've pointed out before with evidence, Kobe's numbers have gotten better against the Rockets since Battier arrived. Also, leebigez makes good points as well. Who's the Lebron stopper on Orlando? They're up 2-1. Look at Denver playing competitively with the Lakers as well without a Kobe stopper. Oh, so you're an economist now. What about supply and demand? If you don't think other similar type players like Ariza, Pietrus, and Posey were available for less then you're more delusional than I thought. Actually, those guys are much better values than Battier, because they cost less, actually perform consistently on both ends of the court, and have stepped up in the playoffs and have done what role players have to do on occasion which is make big plays and rise to the challenge when its counted the most both on offense and defense. Also, go look at how they were acquired. Bowen free agent. Posey was traded by Memphis to Miami in deal involving role players. Posey was acquired by the Celtics as a free agent. Posey acquired by NO via free agency. Ariza traded from Orlando to the Lakers for Cook and Mo Evans and neither are with the Magic anymore. Pietrus went to Orlando as a free agent as well. Moreover, all those guys make less $ than Battier and most of them are guys who bring it on both ends of the court unlike Shane. Why hasn't Battier improved since his rookie year? All the other players mentioned above have improved their games since coming into the league. Also, why is it that Battier had more fta attempts in his 1st year with the Griz than his entire career as a Houston Rocket? As I've said before, if Battier isn't traded, he will become a guy who only plays 15-20 mpg as a situational player who's role will be dependent on the competition once T-Mac either comes back or is traded. His inability to be a scoring threat on the offensive end hurts the Rockets too much to justify playing him 30+ plus mpg. He will be spending a lot more time on the bench with the rest of the one-dimensional players.
I remember ariza with the knicks and thought of him as a high upside guy. People that watched him always said he was a good defender from the jump, he just needed to refine his offense. I just wonder why people never expect a young player to take to good coaching? Like i said about rudy, imagine that guy accepting coaching. He has tools both offensively and defensively that are rare. Tracy was a good defender before he was a good offensive player. Most coaches would salivate over a 6'9 long,athletic, sf guy like gay and would really look forward to coaching him up. Brewer from utah i a guy that had some of the same defensive tools needed to be great defensively, but people wondered about his form and shot. He's turned out to be a good player that getting better. Shane is a good player and could be on a ring team, but if shane is starting, much like if rafer or hayes is starting, your team has to be able to insulate him big time. He can only shoot when he is wide the f open and reading the words on the ball. So his whole game is dependant on whether yao is being doubled or not. In the games when yao is not doubled, he gives you nothing offensively. There isnt many teams that can afford a 0 from any spot and win a title.
