It's getting harder and harder to say Hakeem was better than Shaq

Hakeem was better in his prime than Shaq is in his prime which is right now, no argument

------------------

 

"Hakeem was better in his prime than Shaq is in his prime which is right now, no argument"

I guess there is an argument, because I don't agree.

You may as well get use to it. Over the off season you will see a ton of stories which will argue Shaq as one of the greatest players/centers ever.

As some one else mentioned it is tough for people on the Rockets board to see Shaq as better (or as good as) Dream. I just think Shaq is too dominant.

 

This is one of those questions that brings home once again how dominant officiating is in determining which players are "greater" than others. Hakeem was "great" because the refs decided his shake didn't constitute traveling. Shaq is "great" because the refs have decided his butt-and-elbows method of shoving aside his defender doesn't constitute an offensive foul. Adjust the rules about butting and elbowing, and Shaq is no longer unstoppable.

 

Freak-
Can't you make the argument that Shaq made Penny look a lot better than he is (like MJ did for Scottie). Once Shaq left Penny has not been the same, the injuries didn't help either! ALso noone knows what Kobe would be like w/out Shaq either. Granted I think Kobe is a great player but I thought Penny was a great player when he played with Shaq.

Really my point is great players (which both Dream & Shaq are) have the ability to make their teammates better.

I could buy the argument that Kobe is better than any of the other Rockets (beside Dream) during the two championships, but it's tough to say how great Kobe would be w/out Shaq. Penny IMO is a worse player than Clyde during the 2nd championship. Penny was a lot of Hype, IMO.

 

I don't know 4chuckie, Penny was pretty frikking good from 94 to 97, a four year span. If injuries didn't hit him, he could have become something special.

------------------
"See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death."
-Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz

 

Shaq has developed a lot since 95 Cato=Bum. He has developed a little hook shot that he has soft touch to. His passing is absolutely incredible. His defense and rebounding have improved. His court awareness and ability to run the floor have improved as well. He has also gained tons of playoff experience. He is a lot better player than he was back in 95. True, Shaq should get 10 offensive fouls a game at least from over the backs, elbows, and clearing out space, but some people say that Hakeem's dream shake and other post moves were traveling, so both players got some slack in officiating like superstars are supposed to, although Shaq does get away with some obvious offensive fouls. Shaq now, would dominate Ewing or Robinson in their prime. Its hard to say who would win the matchup between Hakeem and Shaq. They wouldn't be able to stop each other.



------------------
"See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death."
-Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz

 

Great post TheFreak. Answer my e-mail and I'll let you borrow Bottle Rocket.

I pretty much felt the same way until reading this thread, but who cares. As long as Dream will always be number one in our eyes, the rest of the world doesn't matter. It hasn't up until now anyway.

------------------
www.swirve.com
"Pre-born, you're fine, pre-school, you're f*****."-George Carlin

 

I think it's real close. You give Shaq another ring and yes, he's better. but right now I give the edge to Dream because he beat Shaq on the ultimate stage And even if Shaq was younger, it doesn't matter, Dream still beat him. That's the bottom line.

------------------
humble, but hungry.

 

To me this is an argument about the fastest center ever vs the most powerful center ever.

Hakeem redefined speed for a center, and redefined defensive prowess.

Shaq redefines power.

Why do we feel compelled to name one? I have no problem saying Magic and Bird can be mentioned in the same breath, and so can Hakeem and Shaq. Besides, Shaq's rings do nothing to eliminate the fact that he was 1-21 in playoff elimination series. Shaq's rings now do not make up for years of futility. Dream was clutch right out of the gate, which was the main reason we crushed a Magic/Laker's team in the prime of their '80s dominance.

Shaq has done things now that Dream never did. But....look at the reverse of that.... At equal age, Dream's teams, NEVER played poorly in a playoff series...., because Dream always dominated in clutch time.

give me da ball!

The title of thread could be changed to, "It's getting harder and harder to remember Shaq's playoff futility", but not for me!

[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 18, 2001).]

 

"2 great perimeter shooters in Mad Max and The jet. "

-Max was a "great" perimeter shooter?...He shot below 40 % from the field his ENTIRE career.

"Shaq is as dominant now as Dream was in his prime. Shaq is better offensively and Dream is better defensively"

-He's not as good offensively as the 94-95 Olajuwon in the playoffs. The numbers are proof of that.

"It also helps that Shaq is so charismatic. The press loves him which further helps to boost his stock in casual NBA fans eyes."

-Charismatic?...The guy can barely speak English!. He lies about what women he slept with, calls a classy guy like David Robinson a "punkass" in his stupid book, and makes some of the dumbest comments I've ever heard. He's just promoted way more heavily than the NBA than Hakeem ever was, partly because he's in a huge media market, and partly because the NBA is willing to do anything to boost ratings.

"ALso noone knows what Kobe would be like w/out Shaq either. "

-Oh, come of it. Kobe is clearly an incredible talent, regardless of which team he is on. He was by far the Lakers MVP in the Spurs series.

"Shaq now, would dominate Ewing or Robinson in their prime. "

-Did you watch the 99 Spurs Lakers series?...Robinson played Shaq to a total standstill. The only difference between 01 and 99 is that Kobe has improved light years and thus LA was able to beat the Spurs.

------------------
Get Cato out of there...

 

I agree with the comment abou domminance vs. Skills.

Hakeem's skills in his prim with the ball, and shooting are leaps and bounds beyond Shaq's. Hakeem's defense is better than Shaq as well.

Shaq, is way more powerful, and dominates more. I think Hakeem though in his defensive prime may not be able to stop Shaq, but could definitely reduce his effectiveness. Shaq would never be able to stop the Dream.

Because Houston never has had the media attention that other places have had, our teams and players will tend to get less respect.

If the media attention was there throughout Hakeem's career, there would have been more highlight reels, more attention, and he would be considered one of the greats.

I think that by people Watching Hakeem play lately, it's tainted their overall opinion on the man's ability.

------------------

 

"-Charismatic?...The guy can barely speak English!. He lies about what women he slept with, calls a classy guy like David Robinson a "punkass" in his stupid book, and makes some of the dumbest comments I've ever heard. He's just promoted way more heavily than the NBA than Hakeem ever was, partly because he's in a huge media market, and partly because the NBA is willing to do anything to boost ratings."

Cato-Bum apparently we must listen to two different 7'1 320 men talking. I love to hear Shaq's interviews, he's funny. Unlike 99% of professional athletes he actually tries to answer tha question without sports cliches all the time.
Barely speaks english? Yeah he makes up words to keep people on their toes and he does mumble but the guy is bright. Kind of seems like our President, but I guess he doesn't speak english very well either.
Robinson a classy guy? He may be classy but he is a loser. Did you not see him rollover in this years playoffs? Did you not see him sit out an entire season so he could addDuncan (that could have been an order from the top) but a real player would have sacked up and played.
I see in Shaq the same thing others see in CB4, a sense of humor and someone not afraid of being politically correct. I think he's funny and would much rather hear one of his interviews than most other athletes.

 

Hakeem was better than Shaq.

Nah, that wasn't hard at all!

------------------
Founding Father of the
Refs Suck Club

 

Chuck E. Cheez,

I think he had this guy named Anfernee helping him. Shaq will get his points and rebs. Shaq will continue being dominant, but nobody has done more with less than Hakeem.

------------------
"I had mine chewed off by a boss one time." -- Behad leaves us wondering if he gets hazard pay...

 

Penny's injuries are what made him "not the same". For the brief time Penny was healthy in the playoffs for the Suns, Penny was a very good player. He also guarded Kobe well from what I remember. Penny was one of the elite PG/SG's when he was playing with Shaq.

------------------
"I had mine chewed off by a boss one time." -- Behad leaves us wondering if he gets hazard pay...

 

People tie the number of rings a player has to how great he is too tightly. Yes, the number of rings a player has is somewhat an indication of his greatness, but it's far more "not necessarily" an indication. Rings are won by teams, not individuals, so I don't think any comparison between individuals and their skills should rely so much on the number of rings they have.

------------------
"I had mine chewed off by a boss one time." -- Behad leaves us wondering if he gets hazard pay...

 

What Shaq has developed most since 95 is his weight: from 315 to 340. Put a polar bear to wrestle with him next year and he would be co-MVP.

And please, no such thing as people "say" Hakeem was travelling. Most serious fans who "watch" the game seldom found Hakeem travelling. I usually found 94 Knicks' fans jumping to Hakeem's defense on this. Don't you have a VCR? Watch the game in slow motion and you will see that he selfom travelled. In Hakeem's book, he said that sometimes he pulled the referee aside, before or after game to demonstrate in slow motion that he is not travelling in those shakes.

------------------

 

No, Shaq was dominant Shaq, Duncan carried the Spurs and Kobe was still immature, plus Shaq didn't develop his incredible passing ability and his defense was still subpar. Robinson played Shaq well, but Shaq still was dominant, to say it was a total stand-still is completely wrong. They didn't have Phil Jackson as a coach either, instead they had inexperienced Kurt Rambis.

------------------
"I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
-Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center

 

KD, I said that some people accuse Hakeem of traveling in his post moves, because he is so graceful and quick. I never said that he did travel.

------------------
"I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
-Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center