But this is very likely a product of socialization. Men are taught, from an early age, to think in terms of individual, autonomous units. They're supposed to go out and "conquer the bad guys." They're given role models like Washington and Adams, who redefined the way that people thought about democracy. Little girls are given role models like nurses (in the wars). This is going to serve to encourage women to wish to view the world in terms of "webs of relationships." It's *not* biological; raise a kid a certain way, and that's the way they act. If it were genetic, parenting decisions wouldn't be so important. Also, little girls once scored FAR worse in science and math. People assumed this was because they were "naturally inferior" at math, and better at English. Not true... these "gender gaps" have been steadily diminishing with a focused effort to make it acceptable for girls to go into science. As a society, we still "channel" our off-spring into paths far too often. We need to remove the gender stereotypes away from different positions. If this happens, I bet things even out considerably. About the studies concerning absentee fathers: two things: 1. Children are more likely to face an absentee parent problems in already at-risk situations. 2. One recent study actually determined that children are less likely to engage in violence without a father figure. I think it's almost entirely the way you raise a child. *shrug*... we need more good parents . ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 18, 2001).]
Rich, Well, then, you were wrong. I did not find her a threat, I thought that the idea she promoted was horrific and reacted to that. I never said she should be kicked off, I said I knew nothing about her (thus making further impossible for her to threaten my ideals). people were defending the comment by saying the couple had a right to not invite a family member so their wedding could be perfect. You have a fuzzy memory. You always want to bunch me with your Democratic enemies. Sigh... ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
I said most could be attributed to socialization and life style choice. Obviously you care to use false bravado when addressing this subject and that is a shame. Maybe one day when your kids are taken away or you're passed over for a position because of a feminist agenda you will have a more well rounded view of the situation. ------------------ The death penalty SUCKS.
Little girls don't just have those "roles" imposed on them; they also gravitate to them because of their inclinations and native ebilities. Same with little boys. Ever seen the news mag piece on the little boy who they "mistakenly" thought was a girl? He was a twin with a twin brother. They cut off his member, moved away, and raised him as a girl. Childhood was torture. He always felt like a boy but had to live as a girl. He rebelled at the family's and school's efforts to make him behave like a girl. Now he is living as a man. It's only one story but it was a miserable failure. ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these."
Timing, Why discuss the irrational rationally? I still would like to know how feminists took away Rich's children. False bravado? My most important point: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . See? ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines [This message has been edited by rimbaud (edited June 18, 2001).]
Your statements indicate that you accept without equivocation the interpretations you have been given of the studies you have mentioned. You accept that the study and its interpretations are valid, objective, and definitive. I do not. Why? Because I do not place such faith in studies which purport to divine cause and effect with such certainty. Instead, I view the history of the species. Like our simian relatives, we have certain traits which are in born. We can readily observe such traits in our genetic cousins because their behaviors are unfettered by the illusion that they control their own destinies and choose their life styles. Haven, this is not about age, but about the process of developing with age a more critical review of areas related to social sciences. Btw, I had a double major in History and Political Science, and almost certainly thought exactly as you do on this topic when I was a student. Scary, huh? Like I said, hang around a while. You might change your mind in time. I did. Why? Did I forget what I had learned, or did I learn more as life progressed? I think it was the latter. I've got to run, but will continue this later. ------------------
rimbaud: sorry if I wrongly accused you. I was thinking more of the latter part of that thread which had moved away from the specific complain about the wedding issue. Take this to heart: it's a little insulting to me that you reduce my personal story here to a mis-perception on MY part that the feminists took away my chldren. I know better than that. The whole thing was very complex and ocurred over a 15 year period. It was tragic and there were undeniably feminist players and philosophies involved. I have to ask, were you there?! How do you reduce it so, then? ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these."
Courts are incredibly biased towards women in child custody cases. Do you really believe that the feminist agenda has no role in divorce and child custody battles in court? Let me ask you if it was Elian Gonzalez's mother who was trying to get back custody of her son do you think it would have taken however many months to get him back? Why do you think THAT is? Does it have to with that whole female superiority thing, they must be better parents because they live longer? ------------------ The death penalty SUCKS.
Rich: I'm sorry for your individual problems surrounding your wife. Divorce is awful and painful. ------------------ Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau
I was not doing that, so please do not get offended. I was responding with humor to Timing (after him saying just wait until my kids are taken away because of a feminist agenda). Look, I understand this was a bad experience for you. My point is, your wife cheating on you seems to be more than feminism. And if she was influenced by some wacko feminists friends or something, then that was a weakness on your wife's part. There is a difference between that and societal currents in general. I am just guessing, but men probably cheat on women just as much, if not more, than women cheat on men. Divorces are probably equally caused by faults of men and women (I am not saying every divorce is 50/50, but some are because of man, some because of women). People are good, people are bad. If anything involved in feminism gave your wife justification to do things she did, again, that is just false justification. You have do have the potential to do something, imo, you cannot be led to cheat on your spouse if there is not already something wrong with you. Of course I do not know your experience and do not "know" anything. I am just asking that you not fault a movement that has done good things based on an emotionally draining experience you had in a relationship. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
I can say that, yes, that had nothing to do with feminism, imo. It had more to do with US/Cuba relationships. Capitalism vs Communism, etc... The whole thing was a farce, let's not make it worse. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
Pine: It's a mistake to take anything completely at face value. But I'm not a complete solipsist; and I simply choose to embrace that which seems *most* realistic to me. I have more faith in science than anything else, often because it's demonstrably correct (ie the plane I'm on has always taken off and landed without crashing ). Courts have often been unfair to men. I support more equal rights there... but I don't think that has much to do with feminism. Most feminists that *I* know are very supportive of all types of equality - including the idea that single-dad's are as acceptable as single-moms. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment... [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 18, 2001).]
Let me support Rich further. It is really unkind to suggest that his viewpoint can be dismissed as merely resulting from a bad personal experience. Those comments unwittingly support the differences between the genders. Do you think women would be saying anything similar to a woman who just told her story of deceit, betrayal, and abandonment? Not a chance. They would huddle in a collective male bashing session, totally supportive. Instead, we have men basically saying "stop being such a cry baby." There are many roles which can be fulfilled by men and women alike. Socialization has played and does play a significant role in that. But writing off the gender differences as inconsequential or merely based upon roles societally mandated ignores which came first - the behavior or the imperative to be that way. ------------------
rimbaud, you wrote: "And if she was influenced by some wacko feminists friends or something, then that was a weakness on your wife's part. There is a difference between that and societal currents in general." My reply: We did not live APART from society. Those were the currents; they undermined our relatiionship. Those were currents surrounding our lives. What the hell are currents "in general?" Don't go academic on me!! ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these."
I don't think that's true at all. I know several women well who really despise that "support group mentality." ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
Haven, I think I told you that when I was at the point you are in life (and I was at exactly the same point), I believed as you do. That should scare one of us, but I'm not sure which one. And did someone say Rich is a Republican? Wash my mouth out with soap! Next I'll be listening to Rush Limpballs, I guess. ------------------
It's true, of course, that women were at a disadvantage throughout most of history, and that things may be turned the other way now. The one thing that never changes is the battle between the sexes; each one always wants to prove superiority over the other. I don't know why people feel we have to fight. We're all just people trying our best in the world, whether we're male or female. I don't want to consider 50% of the population as "the enemy". A good question is: which things are (or should be) determined by gender, which are determined by society, and which lie somewhere in between? Girls score higher than boys on verbal tests (on average) and it's the other way for math; if that doesn't even out over time, there may be some general inclination of males or females toward certain things; however, there is a LOT of overlap. If a girl feels she is mathematical, or mechanical, that doesn't make her any less feminine. And should gender roles be set in concrete? Especially with regard to who does most of the child raising, and who makes career sacrifices. Rich told his story of a terrible experience with a woman whom he made many sacrifices for, and who still couldn't stay faithful. (It scared me. My husband has made career sacrifices for me, etc., and I hope I never treat him that badly.) I don't know why, then, society still expects mothers to do most of the child-raising. Or why courts award custody to the mother most of the time, even if the father has proven himself to be the more stable parent and is willing to take care of the kids. Lots of opportunities have opened up for women in recent years... I shudder to think what life would have been like had I been born even 20-30 years before I was. However, change isn't easy. It's disconcerting to men to realize their wife might make more money than they do, and might even end up having the "main" career in the household. Some of those ultra-feminist professor types don't help either - why would any woman hate men? When we were younger, we may have had male-bashing sessions (e.g. in the women's bathroom at college), and it's true that you guys do all sorts of things that drive us nuts, but most of us don't take that male-bashing seriously. I don't participate in it anymore because I have since realized that we are not the only ones who can be hurt. Anyway, most of us are attracted to men and, deep down, I can't see that we would really want to spend our lives considering men to be the enemy... ------------------ Isabel,clutchcity.net lurker since 1996 We are the girls from Norfolk. We don't smoke. We don't drink. Norfolk! Norfolk!
Pine, My point about Rich's bad experience was not to dismiss his position, it was just saying that do not take one or even a few parts and use it to guage the whole movement and all of its figures/supporters. Rich, Again, you misunderstand, there are always extremes and middle grounds. There have been parts of the feminist movement that have been extrememly beneficial for society, and there are parts that have been bad. All I ask is that you do not discount the whole movement. I can also offer a similar situation where it was the woman who was on the short end of the stick (my cousin-in-law). Despite having a no good husband, she had to forgoe a major carreer move that would have made it easier for her to raise her children. But because the father had visitation rights (limited, I believe) she had to stay in town. Now, she has to struggle more. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
rimbaud: I was just one of those who got clocked by the pendulum, I guess. Look, I've got 3 daughters; don't think I'm not appreciative of the positive changes brought by a feminist movement. But you know what, I contributed to it. I supported women professionally. I did what I could to make my wife's marriage unlike her mother's, yet in the end I still got screwed over. I can't believe that the only thing wrong is my ex-wife. ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these."
The thing is that most of this doesn't apply so much directly to us as indirectly. If the pendulum had truly swung in favor of women, men would be forced into low-paying jobs or stay at home with kids, we wouldn't have an equal rights amendment and women would run everything. Obviously, we haven't seen and won't see anything like that. Ultimately, real life exists somewhere between the two furthest extremes in everything. The only real constant in life is change and it is up to us to adapt or not. ------------------ Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau
