Haven, I know you think you are correct, but you are just plain wrong. Your "more recent, serious work" is laughable. Believe it if you want, but raise children and you will come to understand much better. Do you really think that those of us who argue as I do simply have not been able to read and comprehend the wealth of materials on this issue, both pro and con? Your comment presupposes that if I had just read the same studies as you, that light would go off which would prove your point of view. Further, you conclude without any basis, that the gender imperatives are those which you have determined are stereotypical. Boys and girls are different. Do you really think the history of the species can be written off as mere socialization? That is just plain silly, and worse, uneducated. The term sophomoric comes to mind...wise fool. ------------------
We do have Joint Custody-- it's just at her joint! Oh, and one other thing. We decided to go for counseling. I let my ex-wife pick the counselor. She did. We went. Twice. The counselor was "unnecessarily" focusing on my ex's unreasonable and critical attitude and behavior. My ex- thought the conselor (a woman, by the way, of course!) was just way off base. She should have been checking me out. In retrospect, it is hilarious!!! ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these." [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 18, 2001).] [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 19, 2001).]
Pine: Most of the stuff from the Human Genome project supports my position. Read Joshua Goldstein's book "Women and War." Minor differences in physical strength become amplified across centuries. Also, child birth automatically made women restricted to the domicile. Gradually, as more off-spring survived, women's role expanded to encompass more and more. Now, minor differneces in physical strength are irrelevant. Child bearing takes place only a couple of times in a woman's life. I do think it's amusing that you advise staying away from ad hominem's, and then throw insults. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
I don't think you should look to Bill Maher to qualify your beliefs. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
Boy I tried to avoid this topic like crazy but responses like this really annoy me. Feminism seems to be in power grab mode to the point where men are ashamed to be men. Rimbaud even says he doesn't mind being discriminated against and actually believes women are superior. WHAT!? This is just horrible and it seems to be happening more and more today. Men seem to have both hands tied behind their back to the point where they do not respond to being bashed and discriminated against. Men really need to create an organization to address important issues. Feminists organizations have become very powerful lobbying groups and it's about time that men became organized and had a similarly united political voice. The pendulum has no chance to swing the other way when feminists are the only ones pushing. One thing on Father's Day yesterday that I found very interesting was the Cap Cure program for prostate cancer. I don't have the exact numbers but roughly as many men die every year from prostate cancer as women die from breast cancer. While I'm sure we've all seen numerous programs throughout the years to raise money for breast cancer, this is the first time I have ever seen any public program to raise money for prostate cancer. This to me was a perfect example of how men's issues are often left on the back burner while women's issues are always right up front. ------------------ The death penalty SUCKS.
Hey I've got to agree with Pine on this one. I don't agree with Maher much-- Pine only time will tell. Pine, you should be saluted for being open-minded enough to PUBLICLY embrace what is perhaps the only reasonable thought in Maher's head-- the femininization of boys. ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these."
I love it! The only reasonable thought Maher has is the one you agree with. I disagree with many people. That doesn't render them unreasonable. What's so unreasonable about wanting to legalize drug? ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
timing: and the claim is that if breast cancer were a man's disease (which it can be), we would have already cured it. New can of worms: the feminist argument is also that if men had babies, abortion on demand would be eternally available. Don't think so. ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these."
Timing, I really appreciate your concern for me, I know it has been hard surviving feminist brainwashing! You misunderstood. I said I do not mind a few irritants because, in the long run, I know that I have the societal advantage. Same reason I did not mind that I faced racial discrimination growing up. Oh well. In regards to women being superior...well, they live longer they have a lower infant mortality rate they don't get as much disease they recover from disease more often they go through periods every month (pain tolerance thing) they give birth all males are originally female first women host a baby for 9 months (conception is 50/50, but after that, it is woman dominant) girls generally have out-performed boys So yes, I think that women are the better (more important sex). Doesn't mean I think men suck, or hate myself or anything. Oops, I see the Queen of Hearts, I have to go kill some men now... ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
C'mon, haven, I'm just exagerating to make a point. You caught me. Please don't grade me and if you do, don't send the scores home! Also, you overlooked the meaning of "perhaps" in my opinion. I certainly don't keep up with all of Maher's positions on any potential topic. This might surprise you, but I'm FOR some form of legalized drugs, gay (civil) marriages, and, what the heck, women's rights! rimbaud: screw societal advantage! Look what happened to my family. That is more importanat than societal advantage. ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these." [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 18, 2001).] [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 18, 2001).]
RichRocket: But it's pretty hard to argue about personal stories. I'm sure we could find someone on here to make any sort of argument based on their experience. Oh, and I consider you to be a conservative Republican, as opposed to a crazy-wacko-reactionary-fascist b*stard . So, just know that I don't think you're all bad, and a liberal issue or two doesn't surprise me . ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
Though a little harsh, I think that the power of a "personal" story versus someone's "theory" is what Pine (here) and I (in other threads of the past) are citing as making your argument(s) questionable. you and rimbaud conga-dance through the beltline of university politics and somehow my 13 year experience which ends up costing me a lot of heartache and a lot of precious time with my children is, what, just an isolated experience. No, I say "image" shapes reality and it can wield a walloping bash, too. You'll get over your "B." Rimbaud will get even in grad school. I, however, will never have the mrmory of teaching my own son to drive a car because of my divorce which has roots in a hostile attitude toward men by large segments of our society. ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these."
Rich, I will repeat, your experience was a problem of two people. Feminists did not make your wife do anything, they did not make you do anything. Emotion in argumentation can often be good, but in this case seeing red because of a failed relationship is not productive. For you or this discussion. Please understand that I am not belittling, attacking, or judging. I am simply saying that your wife just sounds like a bad person and you let her get away with too much. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
Please don't write me off as some hysterical man!! While I agree with your final conclusion, what was your rush to shut up Dr. Laura? Men and men's "rights" are also being abused. There is a lack of consideration that can and often does run both ways. Men's attitude of superiority over women is "casual or patronizing." Women's attitude of superiority over men is "hostile" far too often. ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these."
I do seriously worry for you and men in general. Discrimination is not an irritant, it's an unlawful act. Most of your claims of female superiority have to do with socialization and life style choice. It has nothing to do with actual female superiority. Since when did giving birth and having periods make you superior? LOL ------------------ The death penalty SUCKS.
Haven, I want to say this without sounding consdescending, but I may not succeed. From my perspective, you are a young man whose life experiences and understanding of the world are significantly behind mine. "Been there, done that" is an appropriate statement. When you tell me with psuedo authority that "studies have...," it just makes me want to roll on the floor laughing. Haven, studies prove anything, everything and nothing. On any topic you can name, there is a study which says whatever the proponent wants it to say. You are heavily influenced by the education process right now. In a sense, your mind is captive to the thoughts with which you feed it. When you tell me authoritatively that I could not be more wrong, you are insulting me. Do not use such language if you are not prepared to be similarly characterized. You strike me as a thoughtful young man who sincerely believes what he is saying, but your thoughts are not your own. You repeat what others have told you, or the materials to which they have exposed you. Your lack of knowledge of Camille Paglia suggests your knowledge is almost certainly gleaned only from the limited exposure you have had to these issues in the past few years of college work. This is an opinion forum. You have offered your opinions and I have offered mine. You can state your position without attempting to speak with authority which you do not possess. Stating your position is not the same thing as telling another they could not be more wrong, especially in an area about which there is such significant and strident disagreement. ------------------
Pine: What are you talking about? How does this supposedly important "knowledge of life" reveal to you the historical process of gender socialization? How does it give you greater knowledge of DNA? There isn't much dispute about this. The Human Genome Project found traits that were linked to gender, and some that weren't. It turned out that the way we think isn't really affected much at all by sexuality. Yeah, you want to have sex and procreate... but it doesn't extend further beyond that. You're the one who desire that we argue things "on the merits." And now you want to dismiss someone's ideas for age? Pffft. RichRocket: I don't dispute that it sounds like your wife was entirely wrong, but I don't think you can chalk it up to the evils of feminism. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
Rich, I wasn't trying to do that, just saying there were other factors to blam. What does Dr Laura have to do with this? Besides, I wasn't trying to "shut her up." I was just taking issue with the advice with which others had agreed. Timing, Infant mortality rates have to do with socialization? Periods were to show pain endurance. Giving birth was to show importance. Poor men, he? They can't even walk the strets now days without being discriminated. Next thing you know, we won't be allowed to vote! men would never do that to women and now they want to do it to us! Next thing you know, a woman will be president, lol! Maybe there will be mandatory castration after sperm collection or something. Ooh, ooh, me first. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
haven: it sure gave her justification and a support system to perpetrate a self-justifying fraudulent "claim." If that feminist tripe was not promulgated and endorsed by the society, would things have gotten so far afield? I doubt it. Damn man, look how many divorces there are. Get practical not theoretical. rimbaud: to my recollection, nobody was agreeing with her advice. We were questioning the accuracy of the criticism and defending her right to be heard. That's it. I saw you as wishing to shut her up because her ideas were a threat to yours. But when it comes to the feminist argument, you characterize it as dust in the wind. In my life, that feminist tripe had real and devastating effects. It's nothing to sue about but it's not hold-harmless either. ------------------ "How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday you will have been all of these." [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 18, 2001).] [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited June 18, 2001).]
This topic and the perspective brought by Rich and me, among others, is Politically Incorrect. Maher's show is Politically Incorrect. The issue of the feminization of boys is one of those. Contrary to someone's supposition, I am not a Republican at all. Think Begala and Carville, instead. However, my political beliefs and alliances do not deprive me of the ability to thoughtfully reject the positions of some of my political allies. If you wish to know the number one correlation between troubled young men and upbringing, it is the absence of a good father in the home. Women do a poor job of raising boys on their own. Boys need men to emulate because women do not know how to be men, just as men do not know how to be women. Stating that it is merely a testosterene v. estrogen issue falls short of the mark. Men's and women's brains are not the same. There are areas in which men are superior to women and women are superior to men. Women actually do hear more than men in the same conversation. Women seek to forge consensus more than men, and are more adamant about acheiving it. And as for the drug issue, I am a libertarian. I do not believe in any drug laws. I believe adults should be able to do anything to their own bodies they choose, whether it is abortion, using heroin, putting a bone through their nose, augmenting their breasts, or wearing a Mohawk. ------------------
