I think we have to take some responsibility for what's happening, and cant leave anytime soon. We've scratched a scab and have made it very bloody again. It's like a broken record, but it needs to be said, until it actually gets done; we need to INTERNATIONALIZE the effort. Give over power to get other nations to join and have an equal amount of forces from the various nations. Once these people see the weight of the world is on them, they have to step back and realize they cant win (what they would win I'm not sure). We have to help form a democracy, or the closest thing to it. Whether you think the war is a mistake or not, it wouldnt be right to leave Iraq in the shape Bush left it. The June 30th deadline is pure politics and should never have been set. The closing of the newspaper was stupid. This is a sad situation.
I take back "animals." If they need some heavily bearded guy who has no governmental jurisdiction to tell them what to do, when to behave and when to kill, then they are "obedient zombies". Jim Jones meet your successor.
Are we the ones who invaded their country? Or did they invade us? If anything they can say that the US and Israel wish to wipe out Islamic governments and stamp out every other religion. When's the last time an Islamic country attacked a Christian nation?? I know that Al-Queda attacked the US, but lets look at the history: The US has attacked Iraq (twice), attacked Libya, overturned a democratically elected government in Algeria, backed a tyrant dictator in the Shah of Iran, backed a dictator in Egypt, the US along with the west carved out a piece of their land because of Hitler and what their own Western christian people did. Why not carve out a piece of Germany or Poland? I agree with the war in Iraq for other reasons, but to say that Islam and muslims are attempting world domination is contrary to worldly actions. Honestly, if I was an arab muslim I would want the US out of my part of the world and would think they are trying to control our governments and use puppets to steal our oil and force us to take Israel's continued expansion.
I'll guarantee they knew something was going on inside that mosque, regardless if they were noncombatants or not. If you just happen to be visiting friends at a crack house and it is raided, you're going to jail, whether or not you are partaking of illegal activities. Same applies to the mosque. They were there and they knew something was happening. Women covering up in Islam is part of the religion, except that the religious call for dress is taken from the way the Arabs dressed prior to Muhammed's time. They wore long sleeves and towels on their heads to keep the sun off. Muhammed simply took this as part of his religion so that it would appeal to the Arab world. There will never ever be peace in the middle east. Since the beginning of organized militias and armies, there has been war there. There will always be war there. Nothing we can do will stop the constant violence. Muslim sects are like ants: you take colony A (Shiite, e.g.) and you mix them with colony B (Sunni, e.g.) and they will kill each other until the last one is standing.
How does this now make it a war against Islam? I'm pretty sure they didn't pick a random mosque to blow up. Who is to blame here? The terrorists who try to hide behind their religion, or the US for not allowing them to do it? Here's an idea: If you don't want your mosques blown up, don't go hiding in them. Maybe now others will think twice before doing so.
Perception is everything. When moderate or pro-US muslims see us bombing a mosque...they become less moderate and pro-US....and some of them become out and out terrorists. But who is ultimately to blame? THe US for creating the situation in the first place. Saddam was a bad guy, but he was better for national security than anarchy and chaos. (which killed more americans in 30 minutes in 2001 than Saddam had done in the previous 30 years) This was an unneccessary war which not only diverted attention from the real enemy (al qaeda) but strengthened it in the process by providing it a cause celebre and alienated our allies. This was apparent before the war, and is apparent now, and is extremely frustrating to those of us who warned of this type of thing beforehand. I guess its not productive to say "I told you so", but it doesn't make it not true.
Sadr actually isn't the most powerful or respected Shiite leader in Iraq. That position belongs to Al-Sistani who has advocated non-violence and overall cooperation with the coalition. He has had a big tiff regarding the formation of the Iraqi constitution and provisional government but hasn't told Shiites to take up arms to change that. Al-Sistani in generla isn't a fan of the occupation and as things drag out Al-Sistani's moderate position becomes less appealing as an acceptable alternative to the nationalists and religious extremists. Whats worse for people like Al-Sistani things like the attack on a mosque weaken calls for restraint because they appear like cowardice in the face of an assault on Islam.
NJRocket, I couldn't think of a better illlustration of the Bush administration's mishandling of the war on terror as a quote. They think of Al Qaeda as a "country" or a traditional state actor, and they reacted in predictable ways. Well, Al Qaeda and islamic fundamentalism is not a country...and cannot be treated as such. You can't just start killing muslims indiscriminately and think its going to deter the rest -- it will have the opposite effect. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be dealt with militarily when possible, it should, but it has to be done on multiple fronts in a multilateral way, sincie it can basically exist anywhere. Al Qaeda has no defined borders, no army, no nothing. The most dangerous Al Qaeda attacks didn't come from Afghanistan, or Iraq, they came from Florida, Germany, etc. It's goals are pitting the muslim world vs. the US in a giant, cataclysmic struggle -- and invading Iraq was playing right into their hands.
This whole problem of hiding in mosques is way overblown. In all of Iraq we know of one Cleric in one Mosque. To act like it's commonplace for this to happen, and therfore the religion is to blame is baseless. To act like that if we don't destroy this then every mosque will become a haven for illegal militias is to assume that the majority of Iraqis and Muslims don't want to preserve or respect the sanctity of their on places of worship. Even if the problem got worse and two bad guys hold up in two mosques that is still something that can be dealt with without blowing them up. This is a case of someone who we've known about for some time. The only way to handle going into the mosque is to get people on your side. The best way to get people on your side is by showing a willingness to respect their culture and not interfere as much as possible.
Exactly. Why are you rolling your eyes at that? It's true, and its indicative of where the problems are.
I think it fair to argue that they are not islamic either. Islam does not necessarily preach the radical fundamentalism it is so often associated with. That fundamentalism is the unfortunate result of decades of misuse of islam by government authorities (primariy in the middle east) to promote their own cruel agendas. Just fueling the fire....
