You're kidding, right? I guess Palestinian kids with explosives strapped to their bodies should be assumed to be just dressing up for Halloween too?
Then why even use pictures, articles or anything factual to prove facts. You and everyone with deep-rooted, strong opinions on the matter (i.e. - both sides in this thread and in the world) are missing the point. I wish people would take a minute, stop caring about their feelings and intelligently realize how utterly stupid the whole debate is. You're wrong, no you're wrong, no you're wrong...enough already, how it doesn't make you want to hate yourself is beyond me. My solution...oh, and it's the best because I say so...Bill Gates should buy every Jew and/or Palestine travel arrangements to some uninhabitated island. Seriously, give everyone who is mad in some way or another $1,000 bucks and ship them out of there...even if we're talking 10,000,000 people, that's still only $10 billion - Gates can afford that.
When have you actually seen kids shooting with their guns at Tanks, exactly never. The little ones that are dressed in Explosives are done by thier parents who are just protesting. YOU wont see a parent send out their 9-10 year old kid to go blow himself/herself up... The only way I would see the kids actually fighting with weapons would be if they had a gun/bomb available, and were traumatized so bad by the death of a family member/ school friend, that they actually were crazy enough to go out and do battle.
So when I post articles, picturees or anything factual, its not legit. Its biased media. The whole thing is that if you believe that kids are fighting in the war and are used as soldiers, you had better believe that there are innocent kids/infants/women/civilians killed for no apparent reason by Israel...
So when I post articles, picturees or anything factual, its not legit. Its biased media. all i'm saying is you getting your panties in a gigantic wad before even seeing the proposed pictures. The whole thing is that if you believe that kids are fighting in the war and are used as soldiers, you had better believe that there are innocent kids/infants/women/civilians killed for no apparent reason by Israel... Actually, the whole thing with ME is that I don't care one way or the other. Maybe our (America's) resources should be directed in more beneficial ways to us (Americans)...you know, the war on poverty, the war on illiteracy, the war on HIV, cancer, environmental protection of our homeland (or at least being useful stewards of the homeland that we stole from those who lived here before us...), the list goes on, for me to even care about what's going on overseas.
You probably want to use sources that don't talk about the Jenin "massacre" or the "murder" of Rachel Corrie. It turned out that there was no massacre in Jenin and that Corrie either threw herself in front of the bulldozer or fell in front of it. Either way, she got herself into the path of the oncoming bulldozer and THEN either wouldn't or couldn't get out of the way.
She wouldn't move from the front of the bulldozer, so now she takes the celestial dirt nap. No great loss there. When you read this column by Dennis Prager, he pretty much takes her to task. Martyr my ass. link
So, if she peacefully protested an oppressive, Apartheid type system from Israel, and was run over by a Bulldozer because she had the courage of her conviction and was trying to put peaceful action to her words, then it's no big loss? Normally right wingers are in favor of victims rights, but in this case it looks like they heaping the abuse on this victim. Praeger mentions that she sided with the side that produces terrorists, but that in itself is misleading. She didn't advocate terrorism. She was in favor of using peaceful means. She did side and discrimination, and oppression, which apparently Praeger supports from his article. She was one more civilian death at the hands of an oppressive and bigotted govt.
Both sides are completely wrong. For Israel to continue to have an apartheid state is wrong while arming settlements and continuing to expand their border at the expense of others homes. Then they expect Palestinians not to fight back or give their lives for their homes. On the other hand, Palestinians are foolish in their support of extremist nuts that prey on civilians and easy targets to create terror and harm their own position. Nothing justifys an attack on civilian populations. My only concern is that we in the US send $3-$4 billion (biggest support to any country) in funding plus weapons and trade benefits to a country with only 7 million people. With a population that size, there is no way they could sustain their costly military and would be financially forced to make a settlement. Yet they recieve so much funding and military power from the US that they are not feeling the financial crunch of their regime. Not only is it costing us these billions, but we are seen as a key ally making us enemies with much of the world that detests their policies. I am not one to beg the support of the world, but it adversely affects our foreign trade and our corporations that provide jobs and tax revenue. Its not my job as a US taxpayer to pay a thousand dollars a year to almost every Israeli citizen and watch them fund a military machine at our expense while bringing us negative publicity and sentiment throughout the world. Much of the angst with the US in the Middle East is based on our support of Israel. If anyone questions that then look back to the OPEC oil embargo in the 1970's. Why was it done? To protest our support of Israel. This may sound cold but there are lots of peoples that need support but we're not here to baby sit the world and let them leech off of us.
I knew this thread wouldn't be complete without an F.D. Khan "my tax money goes to them.. boo hoo hoo" post.
Our funding of Israel and the backlash it causes around the world is a net loss to the US. I have explained that over and over. Instead you are looking at the best interests of Israel OVER that of the US. I would call that A TRAITOR TO AMERICA I could care less about Palestinians b/c they are not leeching off my tax money. Bamaslammer is quite patriotic but I think his backing in the conflict is based on some evangelical belief about the Jews returning to the 'holy' land waiting for the messiah and planning for a holy war. Excuse me if i'd rather not base our governments actions on someone's interpretations of religious texts. Can we say secular government all together now?
Not so. I support Israel for several reasons, not the least of which include: -only representative republic in the Middle East -The Jews are by right and by deed the owners of that land. It is their native country and after all the crap that the Jews of the world have endured, they deserve to return and rule their ancestral lands.
Yep, she sure looks "peaceful" to me: You neglected to mention what she was trying to block the bulldozer from destroying - a house concealing the entrance to a weapons smuggling tunnel. How peaceful.
Or maybe, just maybe, it's because every single segment of Palestinian society - from parents (in many cases), to schools, to the media, to the "government", to their religious leaders - encourages & glorifies martyrdom, death & violence. http://www.pmw.org.il/new/
After all they have endured deserve to return to their ancestral lands???? C'mon Bama, this is the kind of liberal logic that you have to detest. No one deserves anything and their decision to return displaced people that were living there. Do you expect them not to fight back?? They can all fight to the death, those are just not reasons enough to compell me as a US citizen to send money there annually and then to pay off dictatorships like Egypt because they play nice with Israel. It is a net loss to the US economy which drives every semblance of why this country is great.
Let's let Rachel speak for herself- The Guardian February 7 2003 Hi friends and family, and others, I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me, "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say, "Bush Majnoon", "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: "Bush mish Majnoon" ... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say, "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago. Nevertheless, no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it - and even then you are always well aware that your experience of it is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli army would face if they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and the fact, of course, that I have the option of leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. When I leave for school or work I can be relatively certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting halfway between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and whether I can get home again when I'm done. As an afterthought to all this rambling, I am in Rafah: a city of about 140,000 people, approximately 60% of whom are refugees - many of whom are twice or three times refugees. Today, as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood, Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border, "Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. And then waving and "What's your name?". Something disturbing about this friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we are all kids curious about other kids. Egyptian kids shouting at strange women wandering into the path of tanks. Palestinian kids shot from the tanks when they peak out from behind walls to see what's going on. International kids standing in front of tanks with banners. Israeli kids in the tanks anonymously - occasionally shouting and also occasionally waving - many forced to be here, many just agressive - shooting into the houses as we wander away. I've been having trouble accessing news about the outside world here, but I hear an escalation of war on Iraq is inevitable. There is a great deal of concern here about the "reoccupation of Gaza". Gaza is reoccupied every day to various extents but I think the fear is that the tanks will enter all the streets and remain here instead of entering some of the streets and then withdrawing after some hours or days to observe and shoot from the edges of the communities. If people aren't already thinking about the consequences of this war for the people of the entire region then I hope you will start. My love to everyone. My love to my mom. My love to smooch. My love to fg and barnhair and sesamees and Lincoln School. My love to Olympia. Rachel February 20 2003 Mama, Now the Israeli army has actually dug up the road to Gaza, and both of the major checkpoints are closed. This means that Palestinians who want to go and register for their next quarter at university can't. People can't get to their jobs and those who are trapped on the other side can't get home; and internationals, who have a meeting tomorrow in the West Bank, won't make it. We could probably make it through if we made serious use of our international white person privilege, but that would also mean some risk of arrest and deportation, even though none of us has done anything illegal. The Gaza Strip is divided in thirds now. There is some talk about the "reoccupation of Gaza", but I seriously doubt this will happen, because I think it would be a geopolitically stupid move for Israel right now. I think the more likely thing is an increase in smaller below-the-international-outcry-radar incursions and possibly the oft-hinted "population transfer". I am staying put in Rafah for now, no plans to head north. I still feel like I'm relatively safe and think that my most likely risk in case of a larger-scale incursion is arrest. A move to reoccupy Gaza would generate a much larger outcry than Sharon's assassination-during-peace-negotiations/land grab strategy, which is working very well now to create settlements all over, slowly but surely eliminating any meaningful possibility for Palestinian self-determination. Know that I have a lot of very nice Palestinians looking after me. I have a small flu bug, and got some very nice lemony drinks to cure me. Also, the woman who keeps the key for the well where we still sleep keeps asking me about you. She doesn't speak a bit of English, but she asks about my mom pretty frequently - wants to make sure I'm calling you. Love to you and Dad and Sarah and Chris and everybody. Rachel February 27 2003 (To her mother) Love you. Really miss you. I have bad nightmares about tanks and bulldozers outside our house and you and me inside. Sometimes the adrenaline acts as an anesthetic for weeks and then in the evening or at night it just hits me again - a little bit of the reality of the situation. I am really scared for the people here. Yesterday, I watched a father lead his two tiny children, holding his hands, out into the sight of tanks and a sniper tower and bulldozers and Jeeps because he thought his house was going to be exploded. Jenny and I stayed in the house with several women and two small babies. It was our mistake in translation that caused him to think it was his house that was being exploded. In fact, the Israeli army was in the process of detonating an explosive in the ground nearby - one that appears to have been planted by Palestinian resistance. This is in the area where Sunday about 150 men were rounded up and contained outside the settlement with gunfire over their heads and around them, while tanks and bulldozers destroyed 25 greenhouses - the livelihoods for 300 people. The explosive was right in front of the greenhouses - right in the point of entry for tanks that might come back again. I was terrified to think that this man felt it was less of a risk to walk out in view of the tanks with his kids than to stay in his house. I was really scared that they were all going to be shot and I tried to stand between them and the tank. This happens every day, but just this father walking out with his two little kids just looking very sad, just happened to get my attention more at this particular moment, probably because I felt it was our translation problems that made him leave. I thought a lot about what you said on the phone about Palestinian violence not helping the situation. Sixty thousand workers from Rafah worked in Israel two years ago. Now only 600 can go to Israel for jobs. Of these 600, many have moved, because the three checkpoints between here and Ashkelon (the closest city in Israel) make what used to be a 40-minute drive, now a 12-hour or impassible journey. In addition, what Rafah identified in 1999 as sources of economic growth are all completely destroyed - the Gaza international airport (runways demolished, totally closed); the border for trade with Egypt (now with a giant Israeli sniper tower in the middle of the crossing); access to the ocean (completely cut off in the last two years by a checkpoint and the Gush Katif settlement). The count of homes destroyed in Rafah since the beginning of this intifada is up around 600, by and large people with no connection to the resistance but who happen to live along the border. I think it is maybe official now that Rafah is the poorest place in the world. There used to be a middle class here - recently. We also get reports that in the past, Gazan flower shipments to Europe were delayed for two weeks at the Erez crossing for security inspections. You can imagine the value of two-week-old cut flowers in the European market, so that market dried up. And then the bulldozers come and take out people's vegetable farms and gardens. What is left for people? Tell me if you can think of anything. I can't. If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would. You asked me about non-violent resistance. When that explosive detonated yesterday it broke all the windows in the family's house. I was in the process of being served tea and playing with the two small babies. I'm having a hard time right now. Just feel sick to my stomach a lot from being doted on all the time, very sweetly, by people who are facing doom. I know that from the United States, it all sounds like hyperbole. Honestly, a lot of the time the sheer kindness of the people here, coupled with the overwhelming evidence of the wilful destruction of their lives, makes it seem unreal to me. I really can't believe that something like this can happen in the world without a bigger outcry about it. It really hurts me, again, like it has hurt me in the past, to witness how awful we can allow the world to be. I felt after talking to you that maybe you didn't completely believe me. I think it's actually good if you don't, because I do believe pretty much above all else in the importance of independent critical thinking. And I also realise that with you I'm much less careful than usual about trying to source every assertion that I make. A lot of the reason for that is I know that you actually do go and do your own research. But it makes me worry about the job I'm doing. All of the situation that I tried to enumerate above - and a lot of other things - constitutes a somewhat gradual - often hidden, but nevertheless massive - removal and destruction of the ability of a particular group of people to survive. This is what I am seeing here. The assassinations, rocket attacks and shooting of children are atrocities - but in focusing on them I'm terrified of missing their context. The vast majority of people here - even if they had the economic means to escape, even if they actually wanted to give up resisting on their land and just leave (which appears to be maybe the less nefarious of Sharon's possible goals), can't leave. Because they can't even get into Israel to apply for visas, and because their destination countries won't let them in (both our country and Arab countries). So I think when all means of survival is cut off in a pen (Gaza) which people can't get out of, I think that qualifies as genocide. Even if they could get out, I think it would still qualify as genocide. Maybe you could look up the definition of genocide according to international law. I don't remember it right now. I'm going to get better at illustrating this, hopefully. I don't like to use those charged words. I think you know this about me. I really value words. I really try to illustrate and let people draw their own conclusions. Anyway, I'm rambling. Just want to write to my Mom and tell her that I'm witnessing this chronic, insidious genocide and I'm really scared, and questioning my fundamental belief in the goodness of human nature. This has to stop. I think it is a good idea for us all to drop everything and devote our lives to making this stop. I don't think it's an extremist thing to do anymore. I still really want to dance around to Pat Benatar and have boyfriends and make comics for my coworkers. But I also want this to stop. Disbelief and horror is what I feel. Disappointment. I am disappointed that this is the base reality of our world and that we, in fact, participate in it. This is not at all what I asked for when I came into this world. This is not at all what the people here asked for when they came into this world. This is not the world you and Dad wanted me to come into when you decided to have me. This is not what I meant when I looked at Capital Lake and said: "This is the wide world and I'm coming to it." I did not mean that I was coming into a world where I could live a comfortable life and possibly, with no effort at all, exist in complete unawareness of my participation in genocide. More big explosions somewhere in the distance outside. When I come back from Palestine, I probably will have nightmares and constantly feel guilty for not being here, but I can channel that into more work. Coming here is one of the better things I've ever done. So when I sound crazy, or if the Israeli military should break with their racist tendency not to injure white people, please pin the reason squarely on the fact that I am in the midst of a genocide which I am also indirectly supporting, and for which my government is largely responsible. I love you and Dad. Sorry for the diatribe. OK, some strange men next to me just gave me some peas, so I need to eat and thank them. Rachel February 28 2003 (To her mother) Thanks, Mom, for your response to my email. It really helps me to get word from you, and from other people who care about me. After I wrote to you I went incommunicado from the affinity group for about 10 hours which I spent with a family on the front line in Hi Salam - who fixed me dinner - and have cable TV. The two front rooms of their house are unusable because gunshots have been fired through the walls, so the whole family - three kids and two parents - sleep in the parent's bedroom. I sleep on the floor next to the youngest daughter, Iman, and we all shared blankets. I helped the son with his English homework a little, and we all watched Pet Semetery, which is a horrifying movie. I think they all thought it was pretty funny how much trouble I had watching it. Friday is the holiday, and when I woke up they were watching Gummy Bears dubbed into Arabic. So I ate breakfast with them and sat there for a while and just enjoyed being in this big puddle of blankets with this family watching what for me seemed like Saturday morning cartoons. Then I walked some way to B'razil, which is where Nidal and Mansur and Grandmother and Rafat and all the rest of the big family that has really wholeheartedly adopted me live. (The other day, by the way, Grandmother gave me a pantomimed lecture in Arabic that involved a lot of blowing and pointing to her black shawl. I got Nidal to tell her that my mother would appreciate knowing that someone here was giving me a lecture about smoking turning my lungs black.) I met their sister-in-law, who is visiting from Nusserat camp, and played with her small baby. Nidal's English gets better every day. He's the one who calls me, "My sister". He started teaching Grandmother how to say, "Hello. How are you?" In English. You can always hear the tanks and bulldozers passing by, but all of these people are genuinely cheerful with each other, and with me. When I am with Palestinian friends I tend to be somewhat less horrified than when I am trying to act in a role of human rights observer, documenter, or direct-action resister. They are a good example of how to be in it for the long haul. I know that the situation gets to them - and may ultimately get them - on all kinds of levels, but I am nevertheless amazed at their strength in being able to defend such a large degree of their humanity - laughter, generosity, family-time - against the incredible horror occurring in their lives and against the constant presence of death. I felt much better after this morning. I spent a lot of time writing about the disappointment of discovering, somewhat first-hand, the degree of evil of which we are still capable. I should at least mention that I am also discovering a degree of strength and of basic ability for humans to remain human in the direst of circumstances - which I also haven't seen before. I think the word is dignity. I wish you could meet these people. Maybe, hopefully, someday you will.
What about that protest is not peaceful? It's impassioned, but it most definitely is not violent, in the slightest. There is no attack on anyone at that protest, military or civilian by the protestors. What is it about that picture that would lead you to put peaceful in quotes? You may not like what she's doing, but that doesn't make it violent, or doesn't make her deserve to be run over by bull dozer for having done it. I know they did find a house that had a tunnel used for smuggling arms, but my understanding was that it was a different one than the one than the one that she was killed in front of.
Yeah, I'm not sure I'd go solely on that picture either. Does anyone know the context of that picture? Also, did she know that the house she was attempting to save from bulldozing contained an entrance to a smuggling tunnel?
