I agree with a lot of what you say but I still think Hamas deserves some blame here and isn't exactly an innocent victim. Hamas had the oppurtunity to work for peace but instead they have clung to a hardline view that calls for the destruction of Israel and have done such provacative things as firing rockets and kidnapping Israeli soldiers. So certainly Israel's response is disproportionate and there is a lot they can do but there is a lot Hamas could do to.
I think the whole "proportionate/disproportionate response" argument is hogwash. A "proportionate" response to Hamas' antics is useless, and anyone with an iota of common sense knows that. Israel isn't trying to merely throw a counter punch, they intend to pummel Hamas into submission, because that's the only way you win a war (when diplomacy doesn't work). The only alternative is for Hamas to actually commit to recognizing Israel and a peace agreement that doesn't include random rockets interrupting people's lunch hours. As long as Hamas refuses to do that, Israel will pound them until they are too weak to continue doing what they're doing.
And the rest of the Arab nations will what, sit back? Israel has violated the 4th Geneva Convention at least 3 times and every time it is brought up in the UN, the US, Australia and Israel boycott resolution meetings. They have and still violated the UN Security Council Resolution 242 which forces Israel to withdraw its armed forces from occupied territory. Yet, there are at least 1,500 armed Israeli forces in settlements in the West Bank. The UN-SC Resolution 242 also guarantees freedom of navigation through international waters, yet there is a naval blockade from Gaza to the West Bank. Israel also annexed Golan Heights as well as East Jerusalem, which is considered illegal according to UN international law. The establishment of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital is another violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. There have also been no consequences for Israel creating the barrier between Israel and the West Bank, as well as no recognizing jurisdiction of the International Court of Law. The UN will never take action against Israel as long as the US is there. Who should the refugees count on then? Even I would've voted for Hamas. Hell, I'd rather have Izz ad-Din al-Qassam in charge of Palestine.
There's a couple of problems to this view. Israel is clearly vastly superior in terms of fire power but Israel can't wipe out Hamas with out suffering a serious backlash from the rest of the World. Israel is locked into an assymetric war and as we've learned from assymetric warfare just killing as much of the enemy isn't good enough and in many cases is counter productive as it helps bolster support among civillians to the insurgents who are seen as the defenders of the populace in the face of a heavy handed assault. In the age of global media it also erodes both support at home and among potential allies when images of missiles from attack fighters are shown being dropped on civillians. While Israel might very well destroy Hamas' infrastructure a heavy handed response just guarentees that Palestinians will continue to be embittered towards Israel and there will continue to be a ready pool of recruits willing to do anything to harm Israel for Hamas or whatever group rises in its wake.
Uh what? 1) But palestinians do deseve their land? 2) This is appropriate justification for lobbing missles at cities randomly? 3) Ever heard of diplomacy?
Yes, and when a semi-nuclear Iran decides to go on the offensive against Israel, you will... start making half-wit, useless comments again? Get out of here if you have nothing intelligent to say. The Palestinian Muslims and Palestinian Christians were living there in peace well before the Jews that ran from Hitler came. From the 7th century to roughly the 1940's there were no historic problems. Why should they get someone else's land? Buying land from absent landowners isn't a legitimate excuse either. Randomly? The blockade itself is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Only America and Israel think it is legit. Not to mention Israel provoked this when they re-invaded Gaza to destroy a tunnel, but ended up killing 7 Palestinians. Both of those are violations of the truce Israel and Hamas had come to agree on. Living conditions in the Gaza Strip are worsening everyday.
Based on Israeli newspapers, it looks like Israel was the one responsible for breaching the peace first with an operation they conducted a few days before Hamas resumed firing rockets at Israel in retaliation (Ha'aretz reported as much). I would also add that Israel's brutal siege of Gaza amounted to a declaration of war itself. How can a country entirely circling another territory and basically starving them out and making their lifes miserable not be a breach of peace? Of course none of this justifies Hamas lobbing rockets into Israel because that too is indiscriminate violence and a violation of international law. I just have to say it is very difficult to accept arguments made by EITHER side, they both seem to have serious contempt for ethical warfare. Both are blinded by hatred and stuck in a cycle of revenge. Both sides have lost the moral high ground and I am afraid can never again be taken seriously by the civilized world, of which they can hardly be considered to be a part of.
230 that most of them are terrorist. Unlike Hamas, Israel is trying to attack specific targets, like rockets-lunchers areas, underground sneaking caves, bases, and Kasams(the bombs Hamas is using) factories. The Hamas, on the other hand, fires his missels on cities, towns, and they don't care wheather they hit schools, kinderguardens, houses, streets...that's teror man. So they killed "only" 1 person (which is not true, it's about 6, not including injuries. and one of the lates is a mother of 4 childrens) while Israel killed more than 300. What can you do? We have F-16, and it's time for us to stop being nice - You started you'r counting little bit late. For almost a whole year the Hamas was lunching rockets to Israel. And yes, people died also during then. And now, after months of trying to get into an impossible agreement with them, and after worning them to stop fire Kasams, which the didn't, we had no choice. And yes, i'm from Israel.
actually your wrong. a) b) here so roughly 800 people in gaza have been killed and a total of four (maybe a few more in the last few days i don't recall) in israel. just like you say we can't help it we have better weapons, isn't this argument just as good for hamas? they can't help it they have crude weapons? and as far as hamas not caring about who they hit, you're probably right. yet israel has hit mosques, universities, schools and awfully near hospitals. as far as your argument that its all terrorists who've died, by all accounts at least 60 or so have been 'civilians'. so we're at 3 civilians in israel to 60 civilians in gaza. also (economist also talks about this) even police which have suffered tremendous losses (in one case 15 or so died at a police cadet graduation or such) who do not count as 'civilians'. so lets say at least 100 have been civilians against 3 israeli civilians. this is obviously in addition to the 2000 injured. i'd imagine at least 25% of those are civilians since thats the ratio at the very least of the deaths. and since gaza has been blockaded in violation of international law for over a year, how many additional deaths should be attributed to israel due to malnutrition since they can't get food can't get in and lack of health services. i have no desire to defend hamas. i don't care about them. but the fact is that israel is launching a full scale air attack in a heavily populated area. after and while blockading the entire region with intent of changing the democratically elected political regime (which in large part was due to US pressuring palestinian authority to have an election and create a strong prime minister), not just stopping the more recent attacks.
Well, let's stop for a minute with all this numbers talking - Even if hamas did'nt kill anyone, they are aiming to. We don't have any will to kill innosant people. And I must say that you right, we are kind of guilty for the sub-conditions that the people in Gaza are living in. And what can I say? They not all deserve it. But - You probably don't know, that in times which we don't strike the Gaza strip, a much bigger precent of the poppulation in there, are a Hamas supporters, that want to delete Israel off the map. And when suddendly we attack them -lot's of them understand that they were wrong, and suddendly they don't wanna fight, and there you go - they are poor misserable innosant people. Maybe, If people in Gaza won't support the Hamas in good times, they won't be bombed. But...they would'nt.
I wonder if you guys saw this... ---------------------------------------------------------- <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MTBAr7tq4rc&hl=zh_CN&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MTBAr7tq4rc&hl=zh_CN&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Israel posts video of Gaza bombings on YouTube Report: Israel learned lesson from Lebanon conflict, seeks to stay ahead in 'media war' through Internet It's been said that war never changes. But, it does frequently pick up new toys. As Israel continues to pummel Palestine during the fourth day of violence in the region, the Israeli Defense Force opened a new theater of war over the Internet. The spokesman's office of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said it created the channel -- youtube.com/user/idfnadesk -- on Monday to "help us bring our message to the world." The channel currently has more than 2,600 subscribers and hosts 10 videos, some of which have been viewed more than 26,000 times. "The blogosphere and new media are another war zone," Israel Foreign Press Branch head Maj. Avital Leibovich told the Jerusalem Post. "We have to be relevant there." The IDF's YouTube channel features clips of military preparations for attacks on Gaza, and low-quality, high-altitude, black and white footage of directed missile strikes against what Israel says are Hamas installations. None of the videos include footage of civilian casualties. Likewise, the Israeli consulate in New York has launched a Twitter page -- twitter.com/IsraelConsulate -- geared toward taking questions about the conflict from citizens. World leaders have expressed serious concern about the humanitarian situation in Gaza, a tiny, aid-dependent territory of 1.5 million which Israel has virtually sealed off since Hamas seized power in June last year. Israel opened one of its crossings into Gaza for a third consecutive day on Tuesday, the defense ministry said, adding that a total of 179 truckloads of humanitarian supplies and 10 ambulances were allowed into the Palestinian enclave since the military operation started. Israel sees the Internet offensive as a way to keep open its window of opportunity to press forward with its thus-far devastating attacks in Gaza. "I don't know how long [the fighting] will last, but at this moment Israel has no small measure of understanding and support, and even approval, from many countries," former Israeli UN ambassador Dan Gillerman said in a published report. "We haven't seen dramatic condemnations [from world leaders], only the expected and generic calls for calm and cease-fire." Since the massive aerial attack was unleashed on Saturday, at least 373 Palestinians, including 39 children, have been killed and 1,720 wounded, according to Gaza medics. Palestinian militants have also fired more than 250 rockets and mortar shells, killing four people inside Israel and wounding around two dozen more. ----------------- it's kinda like COD4...but,,,....you know,, The following video was posted to the IDF's YouTube channel on Dec. 30.
Israel has every right to defend itself. The responsibility for everything that is happening now is squarely on the Hamas Islamist terrorists and their supporters. The degree of anti-semitism displayed by some in this thread is not surprising, but more than annoying.
It was the British who are to blame. They are the ones who 'conquered' the land to give to the Zionist movement. Then when the idiots realized what a mess they created, in late 40's, they ran away and said "you are on your own." A newly formed UN that was created for human rights, diplomacy and to prevent another world war was not going to tell the Jews they have to leave, especially right after the Holocaust and the Nuremberg Trials, which fully revealed to the world what had been going on in Germany. Yes, the Palestinians were wronged initially, but even now after the Jews have lived there for decades how can you remove them from their homes and lives. You would doing the same injustice that was initially done to the Palestinians. What is it that causes everybody to kick the Jews out of their country/land?
Good picture for anyone reading who needs a map and is lazy to find one. Only major change in the last pic to now is that Israel eventually gave the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt.
so, someone want to tell me how obama's policies on israel are going to be different than bush's policies on israel? if anything, then isn't obama more of the same? i seriously doubt one of obama's big changes is going to be to cut off support of israel. if arabs around the world hate bush for his policies, then they are going to hate obama for the same reasons. obama is not going to do anything to support hamas. also, when trying to draw a distinction between hamas and innocent palestinians, i'm sure there is one. but, just where do you think hamas gets it members and support from? you know what hamas was doing during the ceasefire...smuggling in new weapons (including new, better missiles) and preparing for the next big conflict the whole time. i think they were actually wanting the ceasefire to end so they could start their next round of jihad. isreal pre-empted them in a big way. i'm sorry innocent palestinians are caught up in this mess...but don't ask me to feel sorry for hamas members being killed. they know exactly what they are doing and why they are dying. the fact is this cyclical violence will just go on and on. there may be another ceasefire...but it will end again and more war will go on. after all, hamas has the right to do whatever cause they are occupied. noone is talking about peace...especially them. they want world support and sympathy but they want no peace and, behind the scenes, are building themselves up for more of the same terror. if hamas truly cared about all the death (which everyone loves martyrs right?) and destruction, they would de-escalate by stopping the rocket fire. the fact that they haven't done that speaks volumes. it's all about resisting no matter what the situation. it's hard for me to come to terms with their stance personally. they would rather just continue the resistance...and come out swinging later when israel backs off. that's a recipe for more of the same. obama isn't going to change that. obama will just be the next picture to be held up and burned with the "death to america" chants.
