wtf are you talking about? Hamas said the rocket shells they fired were in response of the killing of its militants. Hamas never said the ceasefire was still in place on the 16th, they wanted to renegotiate the terms, but it expired back in June when ISRAEL NEVER LET GO OF ITS EMBARGO N BLOCKADE http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929968.html. why do you keep skipping over the fact that Israel broke the ceasefire?
This is my last post (I hope). http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...sraeli_Airstrikes_On_Gaza:_Key_events_in_2008 Seems pretty clear that the Israeli offensive was in response to a massive uptick in Rocket and mortar attacks from Hamas. The timeline shows this.
Funny how no where in that timeline did it mention that Israel lifted its Blockade that it agreed to lift shortly after the ceasefire signed especially considering that was one of the major points. its okay buddy, keep forgetting that main fact.
Arab governments have been critical of Hamas for awhile now and remember the Palestinians have been fighting a civil war between Fatah and Hamas so there has been many Palestinians critical of Hamas for a while too. If you have evidence that there is a lot of new Palestinian and Arab anger directed at Hamas because of the most recent conflict I would like to see the evidence for that as everything I've heard has been the opposite. Hamas's support is stronger than ever.
Let's get a couple of facts out there. 1. Israel broke the cease fire agreement. They did so by not removing the blockade, and that was before any missiles fell. It is possible that Hamas was preparing to, or breaking the cease fire as well, but if we are going to be angry at one side for not holding up it's end of bargains, then we should be angry at the other side as well. 2. The Palestinians have lost a significant amount more civilians than the Israelis. At least some of the blame does belong with the people who fired the weapons(including cluster bombs, and phosphorus weapons). If the Palestinians have militant installations too close to civilians then they can share the blame, but they still don't get all of it. To pretend that the only reason Palestinian civilian casualties exist is because there are missle launchers near civilian homes is not true. When Israel is using cluster bombs, and phosphorus weapons it is clear that they aren't overly concerned about killing civilians. If one side has more reason to worry about their innocent children and family members being killed it's the Palestinians. That doesn't mean that Israelis don't also have reason to fear for the loss of innocent life, but the rational fear falls disproportionately on the side of Palestinians. I think the bottom line is both parties are like little bratty children. The question is when is a group of nations going to come in and lay down the law with both bratty children, and play the responsible parent to them?
I've read differently...in any case, all we have in anticedal evidence since there's no scientific way to really get at where people are inherently placing blame. Only time will tell. But I think while Arabs / Muslims / Middle Easterners will be more critical of Israel and lay blame upon them, that in truth most actually see Hamas as the aggressor this time. However, they may feel it was justified and that Israel is indeed in the wrong...and thus most of their anger is directed in that direction. Nonetheless...I think most will take away the message that it was foolish for Hamas to instigate this conflict, and instigate it they did with their actions in late December. Not that both sides are again moving toward at least a brief ceasefire, it will be interesting who plays the role of aggressor. I will bet that Hamas takes steps to avoid conflict in 2009.
to think egypt would be less critical of hamas because its muslim is completely being ignorant and naive of the realities on the ground. the egyptian regime, about as democratic as iraq pre-invasion, brutally represses any threats to its rule. one of the largest threats is probably the islamic brotherhood, which hamas in parts traces its ideology from. hamas also was 'elected' in relatively free and fair elections (monitored by many). egypt, saudi, etc., cannot stand these in part militant in part populist hezbollah and hamas. they have always blamed them for a lot of troubles. the success of these parties directly threatens their rule. the complexity of which regime supports which party isn't a 'they're an islamic country' analysis. syria is incredibly secular, to the degree that hafez al assad used jets to bomb and destroy cities which he felt were islamist. yet syria supports hamas, because it hates fatah. syrian ministers called arafat a son of a w**** on the record. similarly syria even joined the gulf war I coalition even though they were both ruled by the baathists, and were staunchly secular. please. before you analyze egypt condemned hamas so hamas must be bad because egypt is muslim so it would have hamas' back, read up on the facts on the ground just a little bit. and im not trying to argue hamas was right or not, simply that the notion that egypt condemning them means anything significant interms of point of view in the arab street/muslim world.
Once again I would like to see your evidence to the contrary. I did a quick search and did find that the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank was supressing pro-Hamas protests but the primary reason appears to be because the protest turned against the Palestinian Authority and Hamas is the PA's political rival. Abbas' position though seems to weakening his support among Palestinians rather than strengthening. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6568321 At the same time most anti-Hamas protest seem not be organized by Arabs and other Muslims but by supporters of Israel. http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/autocodes/countries/israel-palestine/anti-hamas-protests-expected-$1259624.htm Your argument that there is somehow widespread anger at Hamas among Arabs and Muslims and that Hamas is seen as the agressor doesn't seem to have much support. Whereas many are either supporting Hamas or at the minimum see Israel as the aggressor. http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-01-11-voa24.cfm If you are citing Arab governments. Remember that many Arab governments have long feared Hamas and other Islamist groups but opposition towards Hamas is eroding support for those governments among their own people. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/18/weekinreview/18worth.html [rquoter]Yet the 2006 war strengthened Hezbollah politically, and the group now seems likely to win a majority in the parliamentary elections later this year, a pivotal development. Many people in Lebanon fear that the current war could bring similar new strength to Hamas, even as it inflicts political damage on its foes in the Arab world. “It may take some time, but Hamas will take over the West Bank,” said Sarkis Naoum, a political columnist for the Beirut newspaper Al Nahar. That, Mr. Naoum added, would put Hamas’s patrons, Syria and Iran, in a much stronger position vis-à-vis the other Arab countries. It may also — not coincidentally — put Syria and Iran in a stronger position vis-à-vis the United States, should Barack Obama follow through on his proposal to talk directly with them.[/rquoter] So contrary to the argument that you are making that Hamas has been diplomatically weakened by this conflict if anything it looks like Arab governments that are opposed to Hamas are the ones being weakend along with the moderate PA leadership. None of that bodes well for Israel's security.
http://newsblaze.com/story/20090110065320zzzz.nb/topstory.html http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/02/mideast/egypt.php EGYPTIANS BLAME HAMAS YET ARE ANGRY AT CAIRO TOO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoi0TGyx_uA Palestinian girl blames Hamas
^ Thank you for posting your evidence and I will agree there is some support for you position. That said most of what you post though does follow that most of the Arab and Muslim disapproval of Hamas is by the governments that already have problems with Hamas since before the crisis. I noticed this one of the articles you posted: http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/02/mideast/egypt.php?page=1 [rquoter]There have been a series of demonstrations organized by the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo, relatively large but controlled by the police, which have demanded more action for Gazans. In return for being allowed to demonstrate, analysts said, organizers quickly silenced chants criticizing Mubarak himself. While Cairo residents interviewed Friday resented the criticism from other Arabs as unfair and unjustified, citing Egyptian aid to Palestinian victims, they were also uneasy with Cairo's open blame of Hamas and failure to criticize Israel more loudly. Nearly everyone interviewed watches Al Jazeera and praised it for its realistic, if bloody coverage of Gaza, contrasting it to the tame stuff shown on national television. "What Egypt is doing is far from enough," said Gabr Imam Hanef, 57, who runs a parking lot in the poor northwestern district of Cairo around the Sayyida Zeinab mosque. "Hosni Mubarak has to go to Gaza and talk to Hamas and stand up with them in support, and then he has to talk to the Israelis." Hanef said that Mubarak is a good man who has kept Egypt at peace, "but he is not doing all he can." There is not enough pressure on Israel and Washington, he said, and he thought that the demonstrations in Cairo should continue. [/rquoter] Your own source material undermines your essential argument that the current conflict is making Israel safer since more anger is directed at Hamas. At best you can claim that there is a mixed reaction and even there your own source material shows that while there is some anger at Hamas what this conflict is doing though is putting Arab governments into a weaker and more tenous position for being either silent or in the case of Egypt if they are perceived as being complicit with Israel. [rquoter]"Egypt is working for peace while trying to work realistically with the situation in Gaza, where a radical group took over the territories next to Sinai, a sensitive subject for Egypt," Said continued. "So Egypt is trying to support Palestinian humanitarian needs, but not allow a radical group to control the situation, dominate the Palestinian issue or affect Egyptian internal politics." But such complications are not easy for ordinary Egyptians to balance, especially when they see constant repetition of Israeli bombs and Palestinian dead on Al Jazeera. More damaging, there is a widespread belief that Egypt was complicit in the Israeli attacks. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni of Israel visited Cairo the day before the assault began. Traditionally, Israel warns Cairo secretly before taking important military action in Gaza. But the pictures of Mubarak smiling and shaking hands with Livni have fueled popular speculation that Egypt was aware of the impending attack and even approved it, in order to chop back the power of Hamas. "There is a lot of popular anger over the position of the government, especially that the Israeli foreign minister was here less than 24 hours before the attacks," said Rania Al Malki, chief editor of Daily News Egypt. "People are putting two and two together and accusing Egypt of complicity. That's a popular feeling." [/rquoter]
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45468 [rquoter] RAMALLAH, Jan 19 (IPS) - Humanitarian aid is being rushed into Gaza as Israel and Egypt open their borders temporarily to allow convoys of aid to pass through. While Israeli drones circle the skies above, Hamas security men are back on the streets attempting to restore some semblance of law and order. Policemen are directing traffic. Several looters have been arrested. Gazans who survived the battering inflicted by Israel's 22-day military campaign, codenamed Operation Cast Lead, are venturing out and trying to pick up the pieces of their lives. "People are feeling dazed and confused. Many are desperately trying to contact family members and friends on the few remaining phone lines that operate to see if they are still alive or if they are injured," Abdallah Al-Agha from Khan Yunis in the south of Gaza told IPS. "Others are leaving UN shelters for the first time in days to see if and what remains of their homes," added Al-Agha. Elena Qleibo, a Gaza-based aid worker from Oxfam and an ex-Costa Rican ambassador to Israel, said parts of Gaza resembled an apocalypse. "The destruction wrought on Beit Lahiya, in northern Gaza, and the Zeitoun suburb in eastern Gaza city is immense," Qleibo told IPS. "The sewage is flowing in the streets. Electricity pylons, water and sewage works, municipal and medical buildings, and homes have been levelled." Initial estimates state that 15 percent or 20,000 of the Gaza Strip's buildings have been damaged, with nearly 30,000 Palestinians forced to find shelter in UN Relief and Welfare Agency (UNRWA) shelters and with family. Nearly 1,300 Gazans lost their lives, around a third of these children, with a total of more than half of the deaths civilian. The number of injured is pushing 4,000. "People are extremely angry and the level of hate against Israel is very high. I have lived and worked in Gaza for many years and I have never seen such hatred from the population," said Qleibo. Gazans are not blaming Hamas, contrary to Israel's wishes. "People laugh at Israel's claims that this was a war against the Islamic resistance organisation and not one aimed at civilians. ... [/rquoter]
More analysis on Arab reaction to Gaza operation, including discussion of Egypt's reaction: http://www.inss.org.il/publications.php?cat=21&incat=&read=2512
This is only part of the rationale, but it speaks more to the paranoid Israeli mind-set and reaction to any threat. Similar to the same paranoid mind-set of the Soviets feeling the need to create their own buffer states after having Napoleon and Hitler attack. I agree that the concern of Israel being wiped out at present is minimal, but that does not mean their concern is ill founded. As long as their are entities who expressly call for their elimination, and do not seek peaceful co-existence, the Israeli mind-set will remain. Let's not forget that the whole neighborhood of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria at one time or another, have contributed troops in wars to eliminate Israel. Sometimes all at the same time. I don't completely condone the Israeli actions, but I understand.
