I have heard that amonst the anti-Israel demonstrates and anger towards Israel...there's also a lot of anger directed at Hamas from Palestinians. Arab nations for the first time have been critical of Hamas. So I will respectfully disagree. I think the key for Israel is to only respond to attacks and not expand settlements or appear as a provoker. Already there is a division between Hamas leadership in Gaza and Hamas leadership in Syria / Iran. First signs of progress I've seen in a long time.
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. will argue the same thing. Israel is the enemy. Crush your enemy with whatever means you have. It is self-defense. Israelis think they are simply reacting to Palestinian's attacks and threats to attack. Palestinians believe they are reacting to Israel's denial of their rights to self-determination, their continual threats of invasion, and frequent assassination of political figures, etc.
F*** ISRAEL... <br> Read this article and tell me it doesn't piss you off!!!! <br> <br> http://uruknet.info/?p=m50891&hd=&size=1&l=e <br> Gotta love the Israeli innocence
That sounds terrible and disgusting, but it could be a fabricated story. Unfortunately, there's no way to know because the media has been blocked out. Even if it is not true, when a devastated, desperate population hears things like that they will want to have revenge. They will want to kill Israelis, and show the same lack of mercy. That's what an assault like this, that destroys so many innocent lives, will do to a people. It shatters hopes and dreams, while leaving behind anger and hate.
I don't think you can equate the two so clearly. Nevertheless...Gaza has everything it wants within reach. It's clear Hamas does not want that. Palenstians will tire of Hamas if they keep provoking Israel which leads to hardships....eventually a pattern will be established. I am one who believes you must meet terrorism with strength. With a strong counter attack. You can't be soft. Just as the U.S. invade Afganistan after 9/11, Israel is invading Gaza after rocket attacks. Palestinians may say that it's israels fault...but they will know the next time a barrage of Rockets get sent over to Israel - what's going to happen? Israel is going to respond. When that is certain...then you can be sure the people will not want Hamas to do that, and if Hamas continues, the people will turn against them because most people would rather be safe then acheive some sort of nebulus political agenda. And this is the reason terrorism should always be met with swift, decisive, and overwhelming force...so overwhelming that it is infact ridiculously disproportionate. I know it sounds heartless, but in the long run it will do far more than the other routes...if the world reject terror and blessed the victim of terror to strike with impunity - I think that will have an impact. This is not to say Palestinians don't have legimiate frustrations or greviances...but their movement becomes illegitimate when they decide to attack civilians. Once you attack civilians, I say you lose. Period. It should take the side backwards. Of course, you might say what about all the Gazan civilians who have been casulaties....the difference is they are not being targeted. But this is warfare, and warfare will end with the death of civilians when Hamas operates in civilian areas. But again, I'm one who doesn't believe in any negoiation with those who commit terrorism.
Yes or no question for you. Do you believe that nearly 6 million Jews were systematically exterminated in concentration camps during World War II?
Saddam Hussain at one point took out a whole village because some Kurd party members from that area tried to take him out...its a cruel strategy. But you are right, it works.
I fully understand what we're talking about here. Answer the question and I will explain how it is relevant, since you can not seem to make the connection yourself.
Isreal isn't taking out whole villages, they are targeting Hamas. Big difference between collateral damage and genocide...I fail to see why so many fail to see that.
I wouldn't dare equate the two. Israel is an actual, significant threat. They've killed far, far more Palestinians. Gaza has everything it wants within reach? That's laughable. You think over a million Palestinians want to be confined to that tiny strip of land, when they believe all of mandatory Palestine is their rightful home? You think they want Israel to control their airspace and their border crossings? You think they want a situation where Israel can be continually threatening them, and they aren't allowed even to arm themselves or build up some form of deterrence? There's nothing Hamas can do to change any of that. I see. Interesting strategy for Israel. Make Palestinians suffer due to "hardships" (e.g. total economic devastation, entire families wiped out) while under Hamas. That's what is commonly termed "collective punishment", and it is, in fact, a common state terror tactic. No reason to beat around the bush; let's just call it what it is. These rationalizations really are not borne out by facts, but rather speculation. In this case, all I've read from experts who are close to the situation is that Hamas will gain political support from these attacks. At any rate, without knowing what the consequences will be (and you do not), there's no way to justify such actions in my view. Too many people are dying for merely a chance things will break the way you intend. Both sides have attacked, and yes targeted, civilians. Both sides have engaged in unprovoked terrorism thought the decades of this conflict. Both sides claim their actions are retaliations. This "they started it, not us" is meaningless chatter, in my opinion. Also, any act should be judged not be the goals, but rather the predictable consequences. So saying Hamas "targets" civilians while Israel merely targets buildings that civilians happen to be in is a totally meaningless distinction if you give it a second's thought. Suppose I'm a terrorist, and I have at my disposal an air force with sophisticated targeting capabilities. I could just choose to attack "military targets" that I know will have massive collateral damage and kill a number of civilians, or devastate the population in indirect ways (e.g. blowing up a UN building that holds necessary food and medical supplies). Does that make it not terrorism? Basically, we must then give the benefit of the doubt to anyone that has the capability to target discriminately and precisely. And as long as they claim to not be targeting civilians, they can get away with it. Sorry, I'm not going to buy into that. That gives the powerful too much license to do what it pleases against the weak. Israel has created these conditions. It has confined over 1 million Palestinians in Gaza Strip to essentially a large ghetto. It has repeatedly antagonized Palestinians through its policies of collective punishment and denial of rights. It prevents Hamas from protecting itself in any way other than by hiding amongst its population. Israel doesn't want Palestinians to acquire more sophisticated weaponry, or build a military that can actually engage its own in conventional warfare. So, Palestinians fight, they fight in the way only they are able. Israelis would do the same thing if the roles were reversed.
<br> So are you saying it is rational for the Israeli's to do this because Hitler/Nazi Germany exterminated millions of Jews in a similar/worse manner?
I think he's saying that Israel has good reason to be concerned about getting wiped out, because of the Holocaust. I would disagree, considering the overwhelming military superiority Israel has in the region, along with the support of the most powerful country in the world. More relevant, I think, is Israel's treatment of Palestinian Arabs throughout the history of the conflict. I think they have very good reason to feel threatened.
<br> That's what I am getting at <br> I figured that's what he meant.. But if he's going to make this a WWII Genocide comparision (shouldn't be made, because of numerous "key" differences) at this point it would seem that Israel is taking on the Nazi Germany role and Palestine should feel threatened... <br> Just sayin..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKWbl2PT-Ug IDF troops storm a house and kill a 80 yr old man and shoot bullets at kids. just pure disgusting, made me ****ing cringe. wtf is wrong with man kind
Had Hamas has Israel's military capacity - Israel wouldn't exist. They would have invaded and slaughtered Jews left and right in a blood bath. The ruthlessness of the IDF is born out of facing an enemy that states what Hitler did was good. Now, you're right in that you can't go back into the past to resolve this conflict. You have to look at the current situation. And that's Israel will never go back to pre-1967 borders. It's just not going to happen. Israel finally yielded on building settlements in Gaza, and Gaza has to give up expansion and focus on building a better life for it's people, not pointless attacks on Israel which will achieve nothing. In time, as Gaza becomes a stable state that doesn't attack it's enemies, it's borders will open up, it will control it's ports and airpace, and it probably will become a trading partner with Israel. BUt that doesn't happen overnight. It takes years. It's a process of trust building. And every time Hamas launches a rocket into Israel, the process goes back to square one. Yes more palestinians have been killed, but that's because Hamas integrates itself into the population. Israel has to fight this enemy - it has that right. War is an ugly and brutal affair, which is why Hamas should make peace especially when Israel is open to it.
Do you really accept this story at face-value? If so I'd say there's a bias against Israel you should admit as well.
what happened to the other thread? Im waiting for you and posted my facts, it looks like you ran away after you found out that Israel was indeed the one who broke the cease fire. Its okay, atleast now you know better. and wait whats not to believe? You believe IDF's story that this father and his wife ran towards IDF troops with Assault rifles and tried to wrestle them away? Seriously do you not have a brain to think on your behalf? If you were a citizen would you run towards a trained and armed solider ? God ppl just dont use there brains anymore
Sorry - I do go to bed ya know. I posted the facts. The facts are that on December 16th, Hamas was still "honoring" the ceasefire - they even said so. So how could it have been broken when Hamas itself said it wasn't. It expired on the 17th, and Hamas launched an offensive. Hamas didn't say it was in response to Nov 4th like you claim. Seems like you are trying to come up with excuses for Hamas that not even Hamas is claiming. Frankly, I can't debate someone who is going to be biased and now resort to some kind of personalization of this debate. RUnning away? Please. BUt I do grow tired of this - which is why I left D&D and should not have come back. Because this debate lacks any usefulness.
