What am I excusing? I'm not defending any of the violence against civilians in this conflict. It is you who are making excuses. According to you, it doesn't matter why the Palestinians continue to fight. I have to ask: what the hell are you trying to achieve? I would think the goal is to prevent them from attacking Israelis, preferably in a peaceful way. But since you're saying their motivation in fighting "doesn't matter" I guess you have some other goal in mind. Perhaps all you care about is making Gazans suffer -- punish them for daring to elect Hamas into political office. Or maybe the goal is to showcase the IDF's military muscle. You tell me.
The short term goal is simply to disbable Hamas' abilities to murder Israeli civilains. That's it. They have to blow up all the tunnels so that they can't receive rockets from Iran and they have to kill as many terrorists as possible.
Relax, I never compared Gazan children to Hitler. I am simply pointing out that if you win a war it doesn't mean the opponent will hate you forever. We did drop atomic bombs on Japan, remember?
It's a legitimate belief, not just some kook idea. Okay, so all these groups opposed Arafat and wouldn't accept any deal he made. So then how, exactly, is Israel supposed to dangle carrots when the terrorists inside Gaza ignore them, even when their own leaders want to eat the carrots? I'm not saying Israel has been perfect, certainly mistakes have been made.
Alternately, it sometimes can. When Serbs were massacring Bosniaks and Croats not to long ago, they were referencing 500 year old perceived wrongs. Basically the same things started WWI and several Turko-Russian wars before that. War in the Balkans is always at least nominally about what happen 20 or 30 generations ago. Of course in the Balkans a lot of that isn't really about the 500 year old wrongs but instead is more about modern ethnic power politics. Even then, sometimes if you want to hate the guy with a different religion, a narrative framework of revanchism gives it a nice trellis upon which to help that hatred grow and eventually bloom. The vibe I get from the extremists on both sides is that they don't expect peace, or even the final war, to occur in the near term; probably not even within their lifetimes. They both view it as a multigenerational struggle with no outcomes other than absolute victory or absolute defeat. I think no matter what, the situation will look alot like the Balkans 100 years from now. Even before the Jews arrived, the 19th Century tribal Arabs were good at dreaming up persistent feuds of Byzantine origin.
That is a perfect example of Israel not abiding by it's agreements. First of all the Oslo accord was a horrible deal for the Palestinians and they were right not to accept it. The arable land was almost all in Israeli control, East Jeruselem is almost totally in Israeli control under the agreement including Haram Al-Sharif. But never the less the Palestinians were initially in favor of the peace process, because they were supposed to gain independent control of areas in the West Bank and statehood. However despite the initial peaceful compliance of the Palestinians the Israelis increased settlements, built a super highway, and other roads(many of which were for Jewish persons only) that isolated and separated Palestinian towns. Palestinians had to pass Israeli checkpoints just to get to the next town. Then in the final insult Sharon makes his little display. So despite halting the violence The Palestinians got nothing in return, and the concessions discussed weren't delivered.
Terrorist groups only can survive with the support of their people. So you have to look at why the people support the terrorist groups, and what needs to be done to stop that. One way to start would be to stop blowing up their homes. Another way would be to help them develop an independent economy instead of constantly doing things to undermine their economic development. People interested in making money are people not interested in blowing other people up. These are certainly long-term things. But if Israel ever wants a long-term solution, that's how it's going to work. Hamas provides social services to the Palestinians. They won their election against Fatah because of schools and infrastructure they provided - not because they supported terror. Until Israel gives the Palestinians another way to provide for themselves, they turn to the groups that do help them. That's just human nature.
Sometimes there is no reason other than, "they are different". What opressive policies did Spain enact to support ETA? What has Sri Lanka done to create and grow Tamil Tigers?
But those groups both want freedom from those countries, while those countries don't want to give them their own state, right? Israel *wants* to give Palestinians their own state (at least in theory). Ultimately, the underlying people on both sides want the same thing in this scenario - it's only the terrorists that want something different.
If the way you pursue "a short term goal" can have long-term impact, you have to carefully consider those consequences. No country that engages in a military operation of that magnitude, which can impact the lives of thousands even in the short term, should do so without seriously considering the long term ramifications. That's completely reckless. Moreover, no one seriously thinks this operation will end rocket attacks in Israel. So even your short term goal isn't going to be met.
It's not so easy to change the culture of a whole group of people and make them desire peace with you. I think we are finding that out in Iraq. Even if Israel did everything you say, the Palestinians would highly likely still hate the Jews. Hence, Israel should focus on realistic goals, like weakening Hamas and destroying their tunnels.
I agree, easing the hate would take a long time on both sides. But that doesn't mean that both sides shouldn't take the first step. Just because the finish line of a marathon is a long way away doesn't mean the runners don't start.
What Israel is currently doing is wrong on a number of levels. (1) It makes it much more difficult to "ease the hate" in the future. Palestinians aren't going to quickly forget what's happening to them. (2) It actually undercuts the more moderate voices; you'll find that Palestinian leadership will be forced to adopt a more radical, defiant, and hard-line stance in reaction to this to maintain credibility amongst Palestinians. (3) Most importantly, hundreds of civilians are being killed. Israel can choose to stop whatever they're doing right now and innocent people -- someone's father, someone's mother, someone's child -- can be saved in the short term. They choose not to, and the blood is on their hands.
Not sure if its been posted, but theres a planned protest for those against israel, at the Houston Holocaust musuem. I don't want to know the exact day or time because I am afraid of what I would want to do if I knew. Like I've said before, I cant imagine ever seeing peace in israel/gaza in the future and its only going to get more intense on both sides. prayers for everyone involved.
Protesting Israel's policies is fine, and I think justified in this case. Doing it at the Holocaust museum, though, is totally inappropriate, stupid, and counter-productive to whatever their message should be. Their protests should have nothing to do with the Holocaust, or Jews in general. The focus should be on one state's aggression against another population.
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I think Arafat wanted to start a civil disobedience movement with Infatada II but it quickly turned violent once Hamas and IJ started back up with the bombings.
Your point is well taken in the sense that neither side honored the agreement with both sides having their reasons. But still, why would Hamas launch some 70 rockets into Israel after declining to renew the agreement? A launch not upon military installations, but upon civilian targets. We can slide the morality and justification of each side many times....I'm not saying Israel has the moral upper hand...not at all. What I am saying is that a state when attacked by a legimiate threat to it's security has a legitimate rationale to wipe out the group that is attacking it. War is a brutal and ugly affair. It's nasty and never clean. It's tragic and awful. But if people really want to stop this, they have to realize that the way to do this is to address both provacatuers, not just one. Hamas has clearly shown it can not be a trusted broker of peace. Abbas has shown that he can be this. Why aren't rockets being fired from the West Bank? Now Hamas is asking for peace, and Israel isn't relenting easily. That's good. If I were Israel, I wouldn't either...and when I did, I'd demand peacekeeping troops take over. I'd want Hamas to be stripped of all military control and policing. Hamas is a tool of Iran and Syria - and until that cord is severed, they will never be capable of brokering a long lasting peace.
Live FEED FROM GAZA, found this on another forum LIVE FEED LINK http://switch434-01.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=434&ar=CH2News_2
What had Bernadotte done to Lehi, besides try and establish peace in that region? Why is Israel so against terrorism, even though it arrested Yellin-Mor for terrorism and pardoned him of it? Why did they kill the man who saved somewhere between 7,000 and 11,000 Jews from Nazi concentration camps?
