Actually during the ceasefire Hamas launched rockets into israel - albeit at a much lower rate than when the cease fire expired. Keep in mind that when the Hamas leadership offers a 10 year truce, and when asked why not make it 50 - he responded by saying Hamas doesn't need 50 years to prepare for war, only 10...and that the existence of Israel was an offense to god. I think that makes it pretty clear.
Are you including rockets fired by Islamic Jihad and other groups as Hamas-launched rockets? And Israel also violated the cease-fire, according to International Crisis Group which interviewed Israeli officials last June and had obtained an official copy of the cease-fire agreement (link): [rquoter] The cease-fire agreement that went into effect June 19, 2008, required that Israel lift the virtual siege of Gaza which Israel had imposed after the June 2007 Hamas takeover. Although the terms of the agreement were not made public at the time, they were included in a report published this week by the International Crisis Group (ICG), which obtained a copy of the understanding last June. In addition to a halt in all military actions by both sides, the agreement called on Israel to increase the level of goods entering Gaza by 30 percent over the pre-lull period within 72 hours and to open all border crossings and “allow the transfer of all goods that were banned and restricted to go into Gaza” within 13 days after the beginning of the cease-fire. Nevertheless, Israeli officials freely acknowledged in interviews with ICG last June that they had no intention of opening the border crossings fully, even though they anticipated that this would be the source of serious conflict with Hamas. [/rquoter] Another brief discussion of the dispute over who violated the cease-fire: [rquoter] Israel and Hamas accuse each other of bad faith and of violations of the Egyptian-mediated accord, and each side has a point. Rockets from Gaza never stopped entirely during the truce, and Israel never allowed a major renewed flow of goods into Gaza, crippling its economy. This is at least partly because the agreement had no mutually agreed text or enforcement mechanism; neither side wanted to grant the legitimacy to the other that such a document would imply. [/rquoter]
You just have to copy/paste to google. It comes right up. http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/nizar_rayyan_of_hamas_on_gods.php [rquoter] There was no flexibility with Rayyan. This is what he said when I asked him if he could envision a 50-year hudna (or cease-fire) with Israel: "The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don't need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel." There is no chance, he said, that true Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. "Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God." I asked him if he believed, as some Hamas theologians do (and certainly as many Hezbollah leaders do) that Jews are the "sons of pigs and apes." He gave me an interesting answer that reflects a myopic reading of the Koran. "Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce. So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people." What are our crimes? I asked Rayyan. "You are murderers of the prophets and you have closed your ears to the Messenger of Allah," he said. "Jews tried to kill the Prophet, peace be unto him. All throughout history, you have stood in opposition to the word of God." [/rquoter] I am actually kind of amused by the "Jesus killer" reference. That is from the old school playbook.
Thanks for the link. Interesting. Also thanks for reminding me of a use of google I tend to forget. It is pretty easy to claim a dead guy said something. All we have is this writer claiming that the dead guy said it. Also, this is just one Hamas guy talking and to leap to it is true of all Hamas members or will always be so is a stretch. Sort of convenient to come out with this article now when Israel is on a propaganda offensive. I would tend to believe it more if the author claimed this, say 6 months ago. Does this mean the dead guy did not say this? No Does this mean many Hamas members do not say this? No. Can we come up with similarly extreme things from Jews? I would say "yes".
You are talking about Hamas. I know that Hamas has broken agreements and accords. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about during prolonged periods where the Palestinians have indeed stopped suicide attacks, and launching missiles, when has Israel held up their end of the bargain? They haven't. I understand when Hamas and Palestinians break agreements and attack Israel, that Israel can and should respond. But as far as that quote, I've posted resolutions of Israel voting to never allow a Palestinian state, no matter what the Palestinians do. Those things occur from both sides, and should be kept in mind when verifying terms of any agreement. But during the times when the Palestinians have followed through, Israel hasn't lived up to its end of the bargain. It needs to go both ways.
The images of the killings in Gaza has created a new generation of hate in the Arab and Muslim world and with the technology and the welth the next gereration of hamas type of groups will be more painful on Israel. Every child that lost a father or a mother is from now on a ticking time bomb, especially when education will take a back seat after all this drama.
Another log from my colleague Anna Baltzer. A jewish-american woman who chronicles her travels in Israel and is an activist against human rights violations I bolded a piece in the journal that is in reference to all those who are claiming Hamas had broken the ceasefire when that actually was not the case. Israel has just used the rocket fire which was provoked in retaliation to the November 4th offensive as a means to initiate this war, otherwise it would not have had a legitimate opportunity to conduct the acts it is in now.
This stands to reason and is obvious. However, the mantra is they hate us totally anyway regardless of what we do. A similar mantra worked to whip up folks in the US for attacking Iraq. Given its effectiveness in the US and the Holocaust it is very understandable that it works extremely well in Israel.
What about during the '90s when Clinton pushed Israel to give Arafat substantial concessions? Eventually Arafat turned down the agreement and launched the second Intifada. Over 1,000 Israelis died. Remember those days, when seemingly every week a new cafe or movie theater was bombed by a Palestinian? Israel does not want to go back to those days.
It's just completely different. The will to fight amongst Palestinian Arabs stems from what they believe to be a tremendous injustice. The will to fight for Germans and the Japanese stemmed from a belief in their own superiority, a "survival of the fittest" mentality. It's too easy to cast this conflict as a "Good vs Evil" thing. That sure makes things nice and uncomplicated, but it's not reality.
Actually Arafat didn't launch the second Intifada but by most accounts was dragged into it by groups like Hamas. The Second Intifada started when Ariel Sharon went to the Dome of Rock in a move that everyone understood was very provocative. At the sametime in the lead up to the Second Intifada there was a failure by both sides to abide by agreements that had been reached at Oslo and at Wye River. Also Ehud Barack wasn't totally willing to accept the agreement being offered at the Camp David talks either. As for how terrible things where for Israel during the Second Intifada things were worse for the Palestinians with a seige of PA headquarters in Ramallah, a seige of Bethlehem and the flattening of a couple of refugee camps.
We can nitpick all these points. And I dont agree that Sharon's visit really caused it. Many people believe Arafat launched it right after turning down the agrement. Point is, Israel was dangling carrots. Meanwhile, Hamas built up its attack capabilities and murdered many Israeli civilians. They were targeting cafes, discos, restaurants, movie theaters, etc. It would be beyond stupid for Israel to let this happen again.
Many people beleive a lot of things but that doesn't mean they are true. Arafat was seen as being weak by many Palestinians which is why groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad stepped up the fight, these groups also opposed Fatah. Also the fighting of the second Intifada started almost immediately once Sharon went to the Temple Mount. It didn't start right after the collapse of the Camp David talks. Israel was still building settlements even during the time of relative peace in the mid 90's. During the Intifada they were laying seige to Palestinian cities and blowing up Palestinian infrastructer. I wouldn't call that nitpicking. As I said in another thread. Both sides tend to only look at their own pain without considering the other's.
REALLY, do you compare WWII with Hitler in Germany invading all his neighbors and the Japanese forces dominating most of the far east and bombing Pearl Harbor, do you compare them to the Gazan children that never even stepped on anyones toes and say that with doing all and everything to them they will still grow loving to the Israeli's. If you still say yes, and you claim that you know all the history in the region, then you are either a fake debator or you need to double up on your meds.
