I live in Israel . Before I write anything try to understand I'm not trying to change your mind/thoughts , frankly I don't care . This is what's really going on . Hamas are a known terrorists group , who took political/military control over Gaza . I know it might sound harsh for some people but the Hamas as an "organization" , does not have moral values like the rest of us (humans). They slaughtered their own people the "Fatah" brutally . You can ask me or you can ask them what are their "goals" and what is their "sole purpose" . The short answer is : to destroy Israel completely , wipe all of us completely and take back "their land" (please spare me the lectures about it) . Now I'm really not exaggerating about what I said , you can find the quotes if you will look for it . Give them the power to do it , and they will . There is no doubt . Basically we are dealing with extreme fanatics , this is the core of the problem . It's not like we didn't try for over decade to satisfy them and give them everything we could within a reason . It didn't work , they never stop . And when they do its only for a brief time to re-organize their next attack . They don't acknowledge Israel , they don't want peace . You can give them everything they want , sign it on paper , but nothing will change ( those are the facts ) . Sederot is an Israeli city near Gaza has been under constant attack for over 8 years . Please name all the city's in the world , where civilians are under continuous attack for over 8 years and the government didn't took extreme actions to protect their civilians . do you remember what Russia did to Georgia no so long ago , and for what ? Now I won't go into details about the burden that the Israelis suffers from this situation . Ask me what is going on in Gaza . In my opinion , it's bad , really bad . There are masses of fanatics\brainwashed\terrorists that lives among innocent civilians . Hamas are not that stupid , they know that IDF is trying to avoid hurting civilians . So they figure out this "great" plan to store means of warfare , lunch missiles , hide , use and exploit the civilians and their property . It's a win-win situation for "them" , because they don't care about Palestinians civilians they are scarifying their lives for their own agenda . Ask me what the IDF is doing about that ? well it may sound funny but we actually call them and announce our present before we attack , planes are caring clear announcements to evacuate the area before an actual attack . It is what it is . sure it's not the perfect solution but what more can we do ? The Hamas are cowards , all their leaders are inside bunkers hiding not "leading" the fight , the rest are pretending to be civilians . think about it how can you distinguish between civilians and terrorists ? Without great Intel you can't . it's not like the Hamas is walking with shirts that's says " I Belong to the Hamas , I'm not a civilian " . So the sad truth that as long as the Hamas rules Gaza ( the way it does ) , things won't change Palestinians civilians will get hurt or die in the process . Hamas does understand power (more than anything else) , I don't think that government want to destroy them because the repercussion will be severe . So that leaves us with one option - the power of deterrence . Let them do math that it is better not to attack us . that's it . I hope things will change but they won't cause there is no "voice of reason" in Gaza that has the power to replace Hamas and control it or other "organizations" like him . About the IDF morality . Well the IDF as a Whole put great emphasis on this subject , even too much if you ask me ( I served 3 years , like the most of us in here ) . But don't you forget that our "great" soldiers are mostly just kids between the age of 18-21 , they are humans they are not perfect , they have problems and issues like the rest of us ( people all over the world ) and guess what , from time to time they make a bad judgment call , and when they do they are judged and sentenced .
That's too easy. Hamas already has the upper hand in the propaganda war, and Israel is determined to not let the mistakes of the Hizbullah conflict happen again. The problem that most Western Hamas sympathizers have is that they assume that these guys are seeking "peaceful living and dignity" like the rest of us. The reality is that they are radical extremists, have extremist goals which are clearly stated, and are willing to sacrifice the lives and welfare of their own to achieve those goals. Hamas knows global sentiment against Israel is a key weapon in their fight, and they've surely learned lessons on Hizbullah on "How to sacrifice the lives of your own and blame Israel for it". That's why Israel is not going to let journalists in. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
Yes, because barring journalists from seeing things for themselves works so well. Generally, when one side doesn't allow journalists somewhere, the natural assumption is that that side has something to hide - whether right or wrong. Suppressing media has never worked. Anywhere.
Well, Israel has to choose the lesser of two evils here. They know they're going to lose the propaganda war anyway, but having people speculate in the dark is still better than having your opponent stage sympathy scenes for journalists, which is what happened in the Hizbullah war (and ultimately dealt Israel a big blow as far as its military objectives were concerned).
Have you noticed that almost every picture showing destruction in gaza has a woman or child in it? They've done this crap for years.
I'm going to forward an article for you to read that was sent to me by my friend Anna Baltzer this morning. She is a Jewish American who has been to Israel numerous times to understand and help expose the basic human rights that are denied to the Palestinians. This is an excellent read if you are open to see the truth in its entirety coming from a Jewish Woman who understands and has lived through the situation. A viewpoint that differs from the biased media that is being constantly thrown at you
It was an excellent read. But letting posters know that your friend is jewish, only makes you an in closet racist and an infidel in this thread. Here is a video from a JEWISH LATIN AMERICAN/DOCTOR/ GREAT ARTIST. He is not my friend, but i've met him twice at 2 concerts. His music always cheers me up during depressing times. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/R3lb7Vx2yVI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/R3lb7Vx2yVI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
If I recall the Third Reich did not view Jews as being like the rest of humans or having moral values.
So those who stash bombs near civilians and sends brainwashed people to blow bases in Israel, have moral values? Most of the Palestinian are normal human beings who have values, The Hamas regime isn't, it is a huge different.
Which is why you will find some surprising (or not so surprising) alliances between neo nazis and Islamists.
Ottomaton had cited earlier that Arab groups and leaders including the Mufti of Jerusalem had sided with the Nazis. One thing though that might surprise you is that one of the Zionist groups, The Lehi Group AKA Stern Gang that supported the British had also sought to ally themselves twith the Nazis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group) [rquoter]Contact with Nazi authorities In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "evacuating"[vague] the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations. On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons. From the German side, the following declarations and actions were demanded: (1) Full recognition of an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel (2) That the ability to emigrate to Palestine be conceded to all Jews, with no restriction of numbers, who, in leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions. For this purpose there was expressed a need to cancel any transfer plans of Jews to distant countries like Madagascar. On January 11, 1941 a letter was sent from Vice Admiral Ralf von der Marwitz, the German Naval attaché in Ankara, depicting an offer to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich".[17][18] There are three possibilities as to how the offer reached the German Naval attaché in Ankara. One is that en route to Germany, von Hentig was delayed in Ankara and delivered his version of the offer orally to von der Marwitz and von der Marwitz wrote the letter using his words. The second is that Colombani (a general in French intelligence) invented the offer because of personal rivalry between himself and other Vichy officials: this rivalry is known from a paragraph in von der Marwitz' letter, "Colombani is of the opinion that his return to France is a consequence of co-operation of Conti with Minister Pierroton", or, third, that Colombani wanted the offer to fail: he had co-operated with the Mufti of Jerusalem in Lebanon in 1938-1939 and was also the one who took him in his car through Syria to the Iraqi border in 1939. In any case, von der Marwitz delivered the offer, classified as secret, to the German Ambassador in Turkey and on January 21, 1941 it was sent to Berlin. There was never any response. Von Hentig would later say that he believed it was important to help the Jews establish a country. [19] [20] [/rquoter] Obviously the argument for bring up Nazis in any discussion regarding Israel, Jews and Zionism is to reinforce the idea that anti-Semitism is underlying these. I think the issue is much more complicated and as the cliche goes politics makes strange bedfellows.
Seems 'to barter with' would be more appropriate than to 'ally with' since their goals weren't in alignment. Rather, the Lehi Group would use the Nazis as an ends to a mean. In hindsight, Britain wouldn't have lost much and the final solution would have been averted. Ah, counterfactual history....
I think glynch is saying that Israel is treating palestines in the same manner that the fascist in germany and in latin america(fascist countries working with reagan) treated the jewish people. He is also saying that people should not put so much emphasis on the old testament. The message of our savior is simple... don't complicate it, even christ healed on the sabbath. Glynch is also wanting to know what the socialist zionists have to say in all of this? that he is tired of seeing posters who have never experienced Oppression calling out those who are stuck in modern ghettos. He thinks that the only oppression a couple of the hispanics on here have been through, is the redistribution of their family business to the socialist governments. sounds familiar.. =) Glynch's post makes more sense than any other that i've read, with the exception of Dubious and surfguy. * I, err, glynch obviously left out that filth Pinochet, because somehow pinochet actually feared god so much, that he allowed jewish people to migrate to chile from argentina. Ironically, many of them would be links for guerrilla movements against the military regimes, and the other half would go on to live successful lives. * Franco was another evil doer, but he allowed spain to be an exit point for those escaping hitler. Maybe the only good thing he ever did.
Good try at spinning a retort, but no. My response was to underscore the complete and utter hypocrisy in someone who somehow claims the moral high ground in each and every one of his one-line posts. This notion of burden to respond to every disagreeable post is pretty fresh though. Good work coming up with a new tactic - the anti-semite bit got old a few pages ago.
If that was true, then Israel would simply wipe them all out, instead of just trying to root out Hamas. And they never would have pulled out of Gaza in the first place. On the other hand, the first chance Hamas has to exterminate the Jews, they will try.
A borderline racist and infidel because I place emphasis that someone opposite of the Palestinian side can come together and realize that the state of Israel is committing wrong-doing; not blindly accepting the socialized norm. Let me put things in perspective for you buddy. It's merely saying that someone from one side can turn around and look at his own and see that their is wrong doing. Let me give you an example so you might understand. Take into account the civil rights struggle that African-Americans in this nation had to deal with. This would be the instance where someone of white skin color could turn around and say, "Hey, this just isn't right". Bold and Interesting claim to say the least Then you bring up some artist that has no relevance to anything? Don't call me a racist because you don't even know me
I'd rather glynch actually clarified his inane post, but let's just assume you're correct. 1) In essence, you are comparing Israel's palestine policy with the holocaust. That's absurd. 2) You are comparing israel to nazi germany, when it's hamas that has a charter that specifically states a goal of destorying israel. Objectively, that's beyond absurd - it's outrageously assinine.
