israel was created due to jewish 'terrorists'. i dont really find people tryina rebel for a home terrorism. but thats what they were called. secondly the 'peace in 2000' was a farce. read up on it. palestinians were already willing to give up 75% of their HOMELAND (peace accords) in 2000 they would have to give up more...with criss crossed checkered roads by israel that palsetinians couldn't use. thirdly this notion that mlk was a really nice peace loving guy is stupid. read his stuff on vietnam. read the 'i have a dream' speech in its entirety. read dyson's book on him. get a better full grasp of his life/views/ideas before you use his life to justify any argument. like arafat or not. he brought the palestinian cause to the forefront of world politics. it wasn't before. if 'terrorism' is used to bring a viable political issue to the forefront we should differenciate it from being used in the alqaeda inflict as many casualties as possible way. arafats goal wasn't to kill people. it was to BRING THE CAUSE TO THE FOREFRONT so palestinians could use hte proper processes. whereas alqaeda's goal isn't exactly to use the UN.
Arafat created the PLO. The PLO charter calls for the elimination of Israel. It seems to me that Arafat's goals may be a little different than you are understanding them.
Originally posted by AggieRocket With respect to my statement about Israel starting state-supported terrorism, that was in response to someone's statement that Arafat started state-sponsored terrorism. Perhaps a better statement on my part would have been just stating that Arafat was not involved in state-sponsored terrorism. He was involved in terrorism, just not the "state-sponsored" variety. 'Perhaps'? Quite a retraction from 'indisputable' Didn't the PLO proclaim an independent State of Palestine in 1988, and refer to itself as government in exile? About Menachem Begin, he was just as bad as Arafat. Arafat never did anything close to what Begin did with the King David hotel. Nonsense. The King David hotel was the British military headquarters, and still, Begin made 3 warning calls before the explosion, including one to the Hotel itself. Begin claimed that the British response was 'We don't take order from Jews' Because of the resulting deaths, the Jewish National Council denounced the bombing. How often have you heard of denunciations of Arab terrorist actions by Arab authorities? When have warning calls been made? Were the Munich Olympians warned? ... any of the Isrealis on Buses? ... or eating Pizza? And the reason that one stopped 50 years ago is because Israel became a free state. So did Palestine, but it was rejected by the Arabs. They wanted ALL of the land. Who's fault is that? You make it seem like it was entirely the fault of the Jews. And the reason it stopped was not just because Israel became a free state per se, it was because the new Israeli government ordered it to hault. They now had the resources and authority to overpower the rogue elements. It's not as if Israel has been at Peace with the Palestinians and other Arab countries all of these years. Terrorism may have been a useful tool for them also, yet they denounce it like the rest of the civilized world. In a sense they are at war with the Palestiniains, yet they arrested Israelis who were planning on blowing up a Palestinian school. Begin's goal was achieved. I guarantee that if the Palestinians get a free state, suicide bombings and terrorism will stop. I wish it were true, but totally unsubstantiated. Are there not strong indications that significant segments of the new Palestinian nation would continue to attack Israel? Again, have you read Palestinian polls? Have you read Fatah's charter? Hamas' charter? Shall these real concerns be ignored because of your 'gut instinct' or what seems ligical to you, or do you have something substantial that you base your 'guarantee' on? Sorry, you sound incredibly naive. If you were the Israelis, what step should they take to lead to the Palestinian State? Would you make any demands on the Palestinians? How would you proceed with the peace process? Just because something is history does not exonerate those who commit atrocities and acts of terror. I never said that it did. In fact, I already stated otherwise, didn't I? If the Palestinians get a free state, that does not mean that Arafat's action are all forgotten and as you state, besides the point. The same principle applies for Begin and Irgun. Ultimately, Israeli terrorism and PLO terrorism are remarkably similar. I really do not think that anyone can deny that. It's quite easy to deny it. You seem to have significant difficulty with the concept of 'time'. Supporting terrorism now is not the same as supporting it 50 years ago ... and the main governing bodies for the Jews never supported it. The main governing body for the Palestinians always has.
what were the jewish groups doing in the 30s and 40s in palestine? please tell. and about the PLO charter can we also discuss how 15 years ago they recognized israel's right to exist?
A.) It was closer to 97%. Which is closer to offering you all of the Eastern coast except for Rhode Island, Delaware and South Carolina. Moreover, Israel is not obligated to offer anything. Can you find me an examples in history where land was offered in exchange for peace?
ACtually even Barach admitted it was closer to 70% that was offered, and that the particular land wasn't able to sustain an independent state.
? <a HREF="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/barak.html">Ehud Barak</a> <hr color=green> <a HREF="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/501473.html"> 2 dead as Moussa Arafat's forces clash with Abbas guards</a>
AggieRocket - The Palestinian terrorism will not stop unless they get rid of Jews from the land period. They cannot live with them so close to them. Its a deep seething hatred and splitting the land in half wont solve anything.
Do you think if the Jews would share the land that both parties claimed heritage to, it would work out? Instead, the Palestanians are treated worse than the Blacks here in the U.S. pre civil rights. I think there's just too much wrong and to much hatred on both sides. This isn't just a recent struggle, it goes back for ages.
There are also many instances of Jews and Arabs living together peacefully, or even slaughtered together (during the Crusades when Jerusalem fell, and no Jews were permitted to survive).
I understand now. All Arafat had to do to be justified in his actions is make a couple of warning calls. Bin Laden constantly sends videos saying that we should be prepared for a massive attack. Does that justify his actions to you? I hope you realize how silly that sounds. Plus, the King David Hotel is hardly the only example of pre-Israeli and Israeli terrorism. 250 people were massacred and 70000 were left homeless in Israeli attacks on the villages of Lydda and Ramle in July 1948. Hundreds of unarmed villagers were massacred in Doueimah in October 1948. This does not even mention Israeli terrorism on American instillations. You can even look to recent history and see the massacres of Shala and Chatilla in 1982 (orchestrated by Ariel Sharon). Groups may have denounced these attacks, but that was nothing more than lip service. Just like Arafat donating blood after September 11th. The only difference is that I have the ability to realize that Arafat was a bad man and involved in lip service. It seems to me that you lack that ability when it comes to Israel. B]The Jewish population owned less than 10% of the land prior to May 1948, but were given 78% according to the Partition Plan. I do not blame the Jews entirely, but I do see the Palestinian point of view. If I owned more than 90% of the land, I would want more than 22%. Undoubtedly you would as well. Even if the Jews did not want all of the land (I am assuming that is your position), they managed to get it. I am not familiar with the school example that you give, but I do know that Israel did not prevent a lot of other acts of terror and bloodshed. As a matter of fact, they participated actively in a lot of it. How is it unsubstantiated? If Israel and the Palestinians are at war, then wouldn't logic say that the war would stop once one side reaches its objective? Why do Hamas and Hezbollah want to destroy Israel? Do not tell me that it is because they are Jewish. From a religious perspective, Jews and Muslims do not have hatred for one another. As you mentioned, they died together during the Crusades. Jews live in Iraq and Iran. Those are the two most radical Islamic countries on Earth. Hamas hates Israel because of the land conflict. Both Jews and Arabs lived in Palestine prior to the Partition conflict. Did Arabs kill Jews during that period? No. Did Jews kill Arabs? No. I am not the naive one here. In all of my posts, I have blamed both parties equally. You seem to be the side that sees it from one perspective and one perspective only. You amaze me. Terrorism today is not the same as terrorism fifty years ago? I would love for you to explain that to me.
Actually, the example I used with the states was not to show a percentage, but rather the concept of contiguity. If you notice in my example, each side gets alternating states. The only difference being that Israel would have a country on top of the alternating states. With respect to the second part of your statement, Israel is obligated to offer land because that was a condition of the creation of Israel. The country was created in 1948 under the condition that both Palestinians and Israelis get an independent state. Actually, considering that Palestinians owned more than 90% of the land prior to the creation of Israel, they have a right to a greater percentage of the land than the 22% that was mandated to them by the UN.
I think it will because the Palestinians know that it is a battle that they cannot win. They know that rocks do not bring down helicopters and deflect missiles. I cannot imagine it being easy for someone to strap a bomb onto themselves to kill others. I refuse to believe that an entire race of people are all nutcases. And the argument that they do it for virgins in heaven, etc. is crap. They want an independent, sustainable, contiguous state. Once they get their state, I think they'll stop. If they had weapons, that would be a different story and I would agree with you. But your point is well taken and I can definitely see where you are coming from.
What's wrong with celebrating the death of a man who sponsored the killings of Isreali Olympic athletes, masterminded hijackings of airliners, and never denounced recent terrorist activities of Hamas and OBL unless pressured to? Party on. Peace is closer.
