I never said that they targeted civies. What I said was that they could have had a higher regard. Yes the guy who planned the mission did admit it was a mistake, but some posters in this thread don't seem to believe it was a mistake.
FB, I guess I worded the last sentence poorly. Your previous post didn't give me the impression that you were accusing the Israelis of targeting Palestinian civilians. My point was that they have been targeting this guy for some time, and looking to stike when the possibility of civilian casualties were at a minimum. It's quite unfortunate that lives were lost, but unfortunately, thats the price of war. They did not target them, and have expressed remorse for the loss of life. I don't think 10,000 Israelis were parading in the streets today to celebrate the loss of innocent life...
Umm.. no.. that was the Likud party only and many many other parties were upset by this. Btw, congrats on 1000.
This is why there are curfews This was sent to me via email ISRAELI LYNCHED BY PALESTINIAN MILITANTS Shani Ladani, 27, of Moshav Olesh in the northern Sharon, was murdered by Palestinian terrorists while he was working near Moshav Nitzanei Oz, west of Tulkarm, Thursday morning. He was buried at Olesh Thursday night. Ladani was bound hand and foot and shot point-blank in the head in what OC Judea and Samaria Brig.-Gen. Gershon Yitzhak described as a "lynching." He said it appeared the terrorists had taken advantage of the easing of the curfew on Tulkarm to perpetrate the attack and had afterward returned to the city. "We understand that they came from Tulkarm, taking advantage of the lifting of the curfew on the city in the morning. They reached the industrial area, did what they did, and then fled into Tulkarm. I can say that all our desire recently to make life easier for the Palestinian populace and enable a return to normal life, does not go hand-in-hand with the ambition and desire of terrorist elements, who are doing everything possible to prevent their own people from resuming a regular routine." Ladani had been working at the factory for only a few weeks and had apparently brought equipment to store in a nearby warehouse.
wait, wait, wait, Refman...you're starting to bug me on this issue! There is a difference between collateral damage (which is regrettable) and targeting (which is intentional). When you specifically set out to blow up school buses that carry elementary school age children, you've crossed a line that is beyond excuse. It's that kind of stuff that really clouds my ability to be objective about this issue. It is not the same as lobbing missiles at drug dealers...here the guys they're going after are trying to maximize civilian casualties within the Israeli population. Where's your lament against the US for Afghan civilian casualties? It's a nation defending itself against the onslaught of terrorism...
Max-- Honestly. They MAY not be targeting civilians...but they have time and again shown a blatant indifference towards it. In our raids on Afghanistan we have CLEARLY gone out of our way to minimize civillian casualties. If we did what the Israelis did by lobbing that missile into the neighborhood we'd be under scrutiny by the rest of the world. You can't objectively say that it is the same thing.
Complete BS! You can't compare the fight Israel is fighting to that of the US in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, we knew who the enemy was... they didn't hide like Hamas or Islamic Jihad terrorists in Israel. If we were so careful, why did we shoot up a wedding, blow up Canadian tanks, mistakingly kill friendly Northern Alliance forces? This is war and mistakes happen. Israel, in many cases, has gone door to door,which is the most dangerous thing to do in a war-zone, looking for terrorists. They went door to door in Jenin, with the terrorists armed to the teeth, and limited civilian casualties. Going door to door in Jenin cost them 13 casualties. They recently went door to door in Nabulus. So don't run off some complete lie that Israel shows BLATANT INDIFFERENCE to civilian casualties. It is actually the Hamas terrorists that show the indifference by using their women and children as human shields, recruiting kids to throw rocks at tanks, recruiting teenage suicide bombers, promising paradise and riches for their families. Israel needs to be tough and they are doing the RIGHT thing. Every time there is a suicide(more like homicide) bombing, they will destroy that b*stard's home. His family is directly linked to the bomber and knew what was happening(atleast most of the time). They can use the 25K from Saddam, move to any of the 3rd world countries that surround Israel, and live like kings.
Great post franchise, except that Israel lost 28+ people in Jenin in order to limit collateral damage. The truth about Jenin is coming out now, and Israel acted with sacrificial restraint.
When you launch a one ton missile off an F-16 into a residential neighborhood, what else would you call it? There are problems with erroneous intelligence and targeting error. None of that has been alleged in this case. Irrelevant. He was at home. Are there children in your neighborhood? Probably. Also you can't really say he's using people down the street as a shield. The Israelis dropped enough explosives to knock down the other buildings too. I suppose that these actions will cause the suicide bombings to stop? Not hardly. So if you ever commit a crime I'll just slaughter your family...fair enough? Ridiculous. My entire point (if you bothered to read it) is that BOTH sides are behaving in a totally unacceptable manner. The only real difference is that the Israelis have F-16s to send up.
Ref -- come on...seriously! These guys hide behind civilians in neighborhoods...it's like Osama travelling in caravans with women and children...it's like Saddam hiding weapons underneath hospitals...it's not blatant indifference any more than the US has shown blatant indifference...at some point it's about merely defending yourself through offensive attack with regrettable civilian casualties. Somone pointed out to you that if the Israelis weren't showing any restraint, you'd see LOTS more dead Palestinians when they rolled tanks through neighborhoods. I would agree with that assertion..if they were as wanton and reckless as you make them out to be, we'd have lots more dead. Meanwhile, their civilians continue to live as TARGETS. The difference is quite distinct. Second...our enemy isn't nearly as "among us" as the Israelis enemy is. Again...do you really think they'd be "lobbing" missiles from F-16s if the suicide bombers stopped? Third...I thought about you when I read an interesting article in Sunday's chronicle about what a bunch of baloney it is that all these suicide bombers are oppressed...many are professional people...many do have healthy incomes. I think we're too quick to jump to the assertion that they're all starving with poverty... Fourth...you said in a previous post that it was ridiculous to allow for slaughter of a family of a suicide bomber...but how complicit are these families in the attack??...I mean, we're learning that preparing a suicide bomber for a mission is often a family affair...if I'm an Israeli citizen, I'm thinking the family is just as much a part of the problem as the guy who actually pushes the button on the bomb. This is not the same thing as merely saying, "you committed a crime, so i'm gonna take out your parents." That's not an accurate factual comparison. I'm not about to say that either side is above reproach...they're not...they're ultimately human. No side in any war is above reproach...you can always second-guess. But it's a lot easier to second-guess when you're not the one being attacked consistently. Knowing how you feel about terrorism here in the States and how we should be dealing with that, it surprises me to see you come out on this issue as you do. If this were happening to you, you've already told us you'd have your handgun permit ready to clear you.
I don't think suicide bombing is in anyway justifiable. You are right that retaliation wouldn't be needed if there were no suicide bombings. But that still doesn't excuse wreckless or disproportionate response which affects the innocent as well as the guilty. Because someone does have an income doesn't mean they aren't also oppressed. Some black South Africans still were able to make a living. That doesn't mean they weren't oppressed by Apartheid. If the parents are part of the plot then they should be investigated for that evidence. Any family members that are part of the plot, have a reason to be investigated. But at the same time, just being part of a family doesn't automatically make a person guilty. I've seen an interview with a Palestinian mother who said had she known she would have turned her child in to the ISraelis, because at least then her child might still be alive. That mother had no idea what her child was doing. The 'law' the Israelis use when arresting family members makes no distinction between those that have knowledge of the bombings and those that don't. Their only crime could be that they are related by blood.
Max-- You and I agree on a good many things. This ain't one of them. Where do you think they live? They have used just enough restraint to keep US opinion on their side. Absolutely. They'd use the excuse that they had to get rid of the rest of Hamas for fear that the bombings would resume. And ALL are subject to curfews and lack of legally protected rights. Sometimes it is. But you see the Palestinian families don't have the right to Due Process to make sure that they specifically had knowledge...they're just imprisoned or killed. And if I were living the life of the average Palestinian I'd be busting caps just the same. Just like I would have had I been one of the Catholics in Northern Ireland. Violence against civillians is wrong. Oppression is wrong. BOTH sides are WRONG. There's no other logical brush with which to paint this.
Refman -- 1. i still strongly disagree with anyone who asserts that targetting civilians and seeing them as collateral damage is not different.... 2. you're using american/english concepts of law (like due process) and hoping to apply them to Israel in the midst of a war... 3. i agree that both sides have committed wrongs....the palestinian position really suffers in my mind because of they way they act on it.... 4. i think israel has been far more restrained than they have to be in dealing with this...we ask for more restraint from israel then we're willing to show ourselves...remember, this is a nation that DID NOT retaliate against Iraq when they were shooting scud missiles into their neighborhoods during the Gulf War 5. your whole argument really loses ground when you say something like, "if i were a palestinian i'd be busting caps too." that tends to justify suicide bombings and terrorism. that's where you and i sharply disagree here. you're justifying the targetting of civilians, despite throwing in the occasional, "both sides are wrong here." sounds to me like you're more inclined to say israel is MORE wrong here.
I think you are misunderstanding me here Max. Most people vilify the Palestinians and leave it at that. In presenting both sides I am forced into responding to these points. That gives the appearance that I am 100% behind the Palestinians. That could not be further from the truth. I am also honest enough intellectually to admit that had I been one of the Catholics in Northern Ireland that at some point I would have taken up arms against my oppressor. You may disagree, and I respect your opinion (I always have). But yes, I at some point would take up arms so that my family could live free...that's just the way I'm wired. If that makes me wrong then so be it. Where I part company with the Palestinians is that they are taking up arms against their oppressor's children. That's wrong. But to allow another wrong in response is equally as nuts.
That is the point. They don't have to live in populated areas. They choose to live among the innocent to use them as shields. At some point the IDF decides that the cost of allowing the terrorist to live is higher than the cost of dropping a bomb on the building. If the Palestinians don't want civilians to die as collatoral damage, all they have to do is live seperately from the civilians. As soon as the evil drug dealers start to wage a war against the innocent population of the neighboring city, the people in the area commit their support to the drug dealers, and the drug dealers are holed up with automatic weapons, then I feel that is a good response, otherwise, its just a crappy analogy. The Israelis value their peoples' lives more than the Palestinians. I value American lives more than others. It is very dangerous to raid a building in hostile territory. If the "innocent people" would give up the terrorists, or simply get away from them, they would not become casualties. Every attempt to move toward any of those goals has been met with an increase in violence. I doubt the same actions now would have different results. Do you really believe there would not be a single innocent Israeli killed by terrorists if these actions were taken?
Well I suppose that they could go out and live on some giant compound, but I don't see where that's a viable option for them. They're movement is restricted. To assert that they could live someplace other than these areas is to not understand the restrictions placed upon the people. Well I've got news for you. 75% of the murders in the US are committed by those in the drug trade. So we've got the violence against citizens. The people they live around condone drug dealing and they don't give them up to police...that would be support. And if you don't think they have automatic weapons...that just shows you don't understand what goes on there either. So I guess you'd send that F-16 on up right now. Incredulous.
Has it occurred to anyone that the more the Israeli government is placing restrictions and oppressing the Palestinians, the more suicide bombings there are? Perhaps further oppression and killing is not the answer . . . just a thought.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I mean no offense, but that is really one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. So I suppose that if we went after evil drug dealers we should just lob a 1 ton missile into the projects? It's the same logic. The Israelis have the manpower and resources to take the building using normal police tactics. Wasn't there an incident in Phillly where they dropped a bomb on some drug dealers house?
Actually, the bombings stop when they occupy Palestinian cities, then start up when the leave. Apparently, fewer Palestinians (although still a majority) agree with suicide bombings after the recent Israeli incursions. The Israelis may be learning a 'bad' lesson...from the Palestinian viewpoint. My personal hope is that both peoples are tiring of this tit-for-tat crap. What was that parable, everyone is left blind? (no not that parable, the other one ).
