I don't call military occupation and denying the Palestinians rights peaceful. The military occupation has occurred since the whole mess with Egypt in '67. For the record Egypt isn't Palestine. To impose military occupation in the palestinian area, and continue seize more land for jewish only settlements and have jewish only roads is not being peaceful. The Israeli military is occupying land outside it's borders.
What difference does it make to right and wrong where one lives, Baqui99? What does that logic imply, that inner city folk can murder rural children? That obvious illogic aside, you're telling me that there are no Palestinians against suicide bombing of innocents?
Originally posted by FranchiseBlade In fairness there are some people on both sides suing for peaceful negotiations and against the suicide bombings. I think that will be the only way any progress can be accomplished there. I saw Jesse Jackson make a great point last night. He said that after the f-16 attack that killed all those civilians, Hamas said they were going to retaliate. Why didn't anyone try and tell them then that retaliation would be counter-productive. No one tried to stop Hamas from that retaliation. He also said it's a matter of now where each retaliation begets more retaliation which begets more retaliation. The situation is very bleak indeed. Strong outside leadership must emerge. They cannot do it themselves. I don't think that GW really has the skills necessary to do this personally. Let's hope that enough strength can be found in Powell and others in the Administration, in conjunction with a long-hoped-for radical shift in both people's perceptions (possibly from exhaustion).
1. Why don't the US just withdrawl all Aid until they have peace? or 2. WHy don't the US just take over the whole d*mn country and divide it like we say it should be divided and tell them they are gonna like it . .. cause we said so. Rocket River
You have got to be kidding. When exactly did Israel try to be peaceful? Never. They militarized from the get go.
And people in hell want ice water. The fact is that due to Jews having a lot of political sway, news agencies will not report Israel being oppressive. I mean no offense, but that is really one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. So I suppose that if we went after evil drug dealers we should just lob a 1 ton missile into the projects? It's the same logic. The Israelis have the manpower and resources to take the building using normal police tactics.
They fired and killed a leader of Hamas. And you say they don't value innocent human life? It sucks that the hamas leader surrounded himself by kids, but Israeli intelligence knew where he was and took the opportunity. If you want to talk about not knowing the value of human life.. talk to the British. They had cracked Nazi codes during WWII and knew what they were doing to the Jews. However, they didn't want to lose their military advantage and didn't do a damn thing. My point being, when you have the intelligence, do what you must. This is war, and collateral damage happens. All this crap about Israel shooting boys throwing rocks at the tanks is false. Obviously, if 100 tanks come in and less than 10 people die, they are not targetting these people.
And they have.. THEY WENT DOOR TO DOOR IN JENIN.. using these police tactics is the highest risk for their soldiers(thirteen killed in Jenin when a little boy with a bomb strapped to his chest led them into an ambush) and yet they still do it. Unlike the U.S. just dropping a daisy cutter bomb in Afghanistan or shooting up a wedding, Israel does use normal police tactics. Wait a second, its the freaking military, why use police tactics when you are at war? Perhaps Israel is more humane than you would like to admit.
1. Because Israel is our Ally and our best friend in the world. 2. Because Israel is the size of New Jersey and there isn't enough room there for 2 huge armies, navies, airforces...etc.
First...who exactly declared war? Nobody. This is not a war this is an ongoing conflict between residents of a common state. The US declared war in 1861, but against the CSA, a separate country. Secondly, I find it bizarre that anybody would condone the slaughter of children to get ONE GUY. I understand that collateral damage is likely, but firing missiles into a residential neighborhood makes it a certainty and will be much more severe. The fact that they flew an F-16 into an area they KNEW children would be and fired a rocket in simply shocks the conscience.
Uh, no. Not in Germany with the Marshall Plan either. rep·a·ra·tion the act of making amends, offering expiation, or giving satisfaction for a wrong or injury b : something done or given as amends or satisfaction the payment of damages : INDEMNIFICATION; specifically : compensation in money or materials payable by a defeated nation for damages to or expenditures sustained by another nation as a result of hostilities with the defeated nation -- usually used in plural the LOANS we gave and forgave we not some payment for something WE DID WRONG.
Considering the SAME DAY of Israeli independence they were INVADED by all their neighbors. Militarizing that soon is such a shocking thing for them to do.
I hope everyone will remember Israel passed something saying that they'd never recognize a Palestinian state.
We negotiated the peace with them after WW2. What is being bantered about here is that the Palestinians can take Israel's form of peace and like it because that's what you do when you lose a war. If that were true then we wouldn't have negotiated peace terms with the German people and the Japanese.
Wrong. We negotiated with them. In fact, as an intimidation factor in the negotiations we intentionally sent nobody shorter than 6'4". I don't know why, but a big deal was made about it. I have read history books...just not revisionist history books.
I think you are confusing the 'signing' ceremonies with negotiations. Negotiations didn't happen. WWI = negotiated peace. WWII = unconditional surrender. http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/ww2time.htm May 7, 1945 - Unconditional surrender of all German forces to Allies. Aug 14, 1945 - Japanese agree to unconditional surrender. http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/germsurr.html Only this text in English is authoritative. ACT OF MILITARY SURRENDER 1. We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Forces and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command all forces on land, sea and in the air who are at this date under German control. 2. The German High Command will at once issue orders to all German military, naval and air authorties and to all forces under German control to cease active operations at =2301= hours Central European time on = 8 May = and to remain in the positions occupied at that time. No ship, vessel, or aircraft is to be scuttled, or any damage done to their hull, machinery or equipment. 3. The German High Command will at once issue to the appropriate commander, and ensure the carrying out of any further orders issued by the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and by the Soviet High Command. 4. This act of military surrender is without prejudice to, and will be superseded by any general instrument of surrender imposed by, or on behalf of the United Nations and applicable to GERMANY and the German armed forces as a whole. 5. In the event of the German High Command or any of the forces under their control failing to act in accordance with this Act of Surrender, the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and the Soviet High Command will take such punitive or other action as they deem appropriate. Signed at =RHEIMS at 0241= on the =7th= day of May, 1945. =France= On behalf of the German High Command. =JODL= IN THE PRESENCE OF On behalf of the Supreme Commander, On behalf of the Soviet Allied Expeditionary Force. High Command =W. B. SMITH= =SOUSLOPAROV= =F SEVEZ= Major General, French Army (Witness) http://www.ww2pacific.com/surrender.html The key points of the Potsdam demands and the Allied final acceptance: The Potsdam proclamation was silent on the Emperor. The agreement stated that the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government shall be subordinate to the Allied Supreme Commander. Territory will be occupied until proof that war making power is destroyed. Japan was limited to the five home islands and such minor islands as we determine. The Yalta agreement handed the Kuril islands to the Soviet union for entering the war against Japan. Japanese military forces shall be disarmed and returned to peaceful and productive lives. Stern justice to war criminals; human rights shall be established. Permission for industry and world trade, but not to re-arm. Allies to withdraw when objectives are accomplished and a freely expressed, peacefully inclined government is in place. Unconditional surrender or prompt and utter destruction. The imperial family, government and military leaders traveled to remote military units to assure that acceptance was the will of the Emperor. Concern about the willingness of the Japanese military to lay down their arms before death, plus the suddenness of acceptance on an Allied military preparing for invasion, both acted to postpone the signing of the unconditional surrender by two weeks while members of the imperial family fan out to assure regional military leaders it was the emperor's wish for them to stop fighting. 14Aug45. Japan accepts the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration and agrees to surrender "VJ Day". 15Aug45. Second strike of morning is cancelled while en route; pilots jettison their ordnance and return to carriers. 25Aug45. Carrier aircraft begin daily flights over Japan to patrol airfields, shipping movements, and to locate and supply prisoner of war camps. 27Aug45. Third Fleet (Adm Halsey) stands into Sagami Wan, the outer bay to Tokyo, Japan. 28Aug45. USAAF technicians land at Atsugi Airdrome, near Tokyo; these are the first American troops to land in Japan. 29Aug45. Emergency evacuation of Allied POWs in waterfront areas. 30Aug45. Landings by the occupation forces begin in the Tokyo Bay area under cover of guns of the Third Fleet plus Naval and USAAF aircraft. 2 September 1945. Signing of unconditional surrender aboard USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay by one government official and one military leader on the Japanese side and its acceptance by representatives of nine Allied nations. http://www.ibiscom.com/vohiroshima.htm The city was destroyed. After the war, Supreme Allied Headquarters estimated that 129,558 were killed, wounded or missing as a result of the blast. Yet, this was not enough to persuade the Japanese leadership to surrender. Even a second atomic attack three days later on the city of Nagasaki failed to bring an immediate end to the hostilities. It was not until August 14 that Japan agreed to an unconditional surrender.
For the millionth time the Hamas leader did not surround himself with children. 10 of the 14 people who died in that attack were in a DIFFERENT building than the one the Hamas leader was in. Also if Israeli intelligence knew where the leader was, why couldnt' they have trailed him until he was in a less crowded area? Why couldn't they have surrounded the building and and sent a team in to get him? Either way would have helped cut down on civilian casualties. They didn't do either of these things. Their choice was to drop a one ton bomb in a residential neighborhood. That doesn't show high regard for civilian life. It's true they could have dropped a bigger bomb, a daisy cutter or nuke for that matter, that has little to do with them not being heavy handed in the strike.
MadMax, how dare you! Seriously though, how 'great' would any of us be? Non-violent demonstrations require the facility to see the bigger picture. We're all individuals. If somebody was beating on me with a stick, how long am I going to be able to envision the bigger picture. Chances are, I'm going to try to shove the stick up the other guy's ass. Our genes are the genes donated by our ancestors and selected for by a bigger process (w/ a bit of modification here and there). The genes that are within you and I... weren't the genes from the guy that took the blows (please insert random example of wussiness being evolutionarily stable here).
Wrong. The Israelis had already aborted several missions to kill him BECAUSE he was with civilians. Even so, the man who planned the mission is on record for saying that he made a mistake; that the bomb wouldn't have been dropped if he would have known this was the case again. They weren't targeting civvies...
