Yes, very intelligent. Now they are so much better off. If they had taken the deal, and Israelis were not being attacked by Palestinians, then those restrictions would have been lifted by now. And you are ignoring my point about the Israelis not being ABLE to get some unified settlement because Arafat can promise one thing but can not or will not deliver peace from the other groups. So 95% with restrictions is a pretty good return for basically nothing. I do not think it is representative of the situation to say that Hamas has been suing for peaceful negotiations. And I agree with Rocketman Tex that your comparison does not do justice to the Holocaust. I don't believe the Holocaust is necessarily entirely unique in terms of genocide, but I do believe the combination of the scope and the barbarity are completely incomparable to the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict. If you would go in the streets and throw rocks at tanks then I would not be with you, chief. I value my life and my family's life. Let the other guy die for his 'cause' to paraphrase Patton. I would follow the path I believe would have the most chance of success, not attack in a blind rage.
Thousands of Israeli soldiers have refused to take part in the West Bank raids. One of Sharon's top cabinet members resigned last week. What does this tell you about Israel's actions?
That non-violent action would work? Ghandi choose non-violence because he thought it would be SUCCESSFUL, and because he thought violence would only cause fruitless bloodshed. Not because he thought it was the only legitimate path to take under any conditions.
Originally posted by F.D. Khan I just don't understand why the Israeli's refuse to hear the Saudi Proposal that the US agreed with?... Wasn't it looking pretty good until they added a demand for the right of return for refugees? I think that's what killed it. Its easier to call people "evil" rather to understand the whole situation. Sorry FD, but targeting civilians is just heinous and despicable. I can understand how some refer to it as evil. Would Any of Us do diferently under the same conditions?? We have been attacked and yet we strive to avoid civilian casualties. I don't hear people of the US targeting our enemy's elderly, wives and children and other innocents. It's just disgusting and does nothing to build support for the Palestinian cause.
That the Israelis have more conscience than the Palestinians? Why aren't there any Palestinians speaking out against suicide bombers?
In fairness there are some people on both sides suing for peaceful negotiations and against the suicide bombings. I think that will be the only way any progress can be accomplished there. I saw Jesse Jackson make a great point last night. He said that after the f-16 attack that killed all those civilians, Hamas said they were going to retaliate. Why didn't anyone try and tell them then that retaliation would be counter-productive. No one tried to stop Hamas from that retaliation. He also said it's a matter of now where each retaliation begets more retaliation which begets more retaliation. The situation is very bleak indeed.
We crushed both of them, and the reparations were to stop another world War.....in WW1 we did not rebuild those countries and it led to another war. I am in favor of helping rebuild Iraq and Palastine after we take them out. DaDakota
and quite frankly, Gandhi wasn't the champion of non-violence he was always made out to be...he urged the British to kick some ass for him dealing with Kashmir (I think). violence wasn't a logical option for Gandhi at all...he wasn't as great a guy as he's made out to be. I guess few people in history really are.
Except in Palastinien case, hatred is so wide spread, "take them out" probablly means "wipe them out". Otherwise, I believe, Israelis would already have done it.
Actually they are asking to go back to the 1967 borders. I see no reason why it would be suicide for Israel. The only people who might be at risk would be those in the illegal settlements that Israel established. Actually Israel is expansionist. The government subsidises settlers(that means actually pays them to live in Palestinian areas.) The settlements have been continuous and are being built now. They are constantly expanding into Palestinian controlled areas. In addition to them being expansionistic they are illegal and against the fourth geneva convention as well as numerous other resolutions and agreements. Also every time Israel stays there are still suicide attacks. The fact is terrorism is the wrong way to go about acheiving Palestinian goals. But let's make no mistake, the goals of fighting the apartheid type system that Israel has the Palestinians living under is a just goal. Under the original UN Resolution that gave Israel statehood, they also created a Palestine. So far that resolution has never been fully implemented. Much like black South Africans were relegated to Bantustans and given some amount of autonomy in South Africa so the Palestinians have been relegated to certain portions of the West Bank and Gaza etc. Only in some ways the Israel situation is worse than Apartheid from S. Africa. At least the Bantustans were partially subsidized by the S. African govt. and the Bantustans had some economically viable areas. Israel has a military ordinance to destroy any Palestinian business that competes with an Israeli business. That's why just next door in Jordan there are viable businesses and a real economy. However Israel is preventing any kind of economic independence for the Palestinians. Israel also takes money out of the Palestinians pay checks for pension, and health benefits(back when Palestinians could work). Unfortunately The Palestinians aren't eligible for either of those things. Their money was going directly to the Israeli treasury. Israel recently released some of the Palestinians money, but still holds much more. A palestinian's water allotment is also significantly less than an Israelis. A palestinian farmer must irrigate crops, drink, bathe, cook, clean etc. with the same amount of water that Israelis get from just drinking water. Of course Israeli settlements continue to be built despite it being illegal. The cause the Palestinians fight for is a good one. The method of terrorism that some of the groups use is destetable and discredits their cause. The African National Congress faught Apartheid originally with violence and then later more peacefully. Hopefully the Palestinians will learn the lesson and switch tactics. Of course Israel initially used terrorism to win their statehood, and it was successful for them. In fact some of the Israeli terrorists went on to become Prime Ministers. There is already a bad example in the region, but hopefully the Palestinians will look toward Ghandi and South Africa and what finally worked there rather than how Israel itself got out from under the yoke of the British empire.
It's very easy to say what you would do under those conditions when you're not living them. Things for them get worse and worse...and nobody in the world seems to care. These are the acts of a desparate people. If they tried to break curfew for peaceful protest, they'd be shot on sight. That is the Israeli directive. As for setting up cameras...great. the problem is that they don't have enough food to eat, much less fancy electronic equipment. The Israelis may not traget innocent civilians and children, but they are indifferent as to whether any are killed. How is that substantially morally better? Dead kids are dead kids...that they fired missiles into a residential neighborhood shows that they don't value innocent human life as much as people may lead you to believe.
What do you think the Marshall plan was in Europt too, Hayes? We rebuilt both Germany and Japan after beating them in WW2. DaDakota
They have to shoot where the bad guys are. If the Palestinian militants did not want one more innocent Palestinian killed, all they would have to do is seperate themselves from innocents. If the Israeli militants do not want one more innocent Israeli killed, what can they possibly do?
Hopefully it would be news agencies that would provide the cameras and even camera crews. They've already violated the curfew in Nablas. They did it in Mass. Hopefully they can unify around this kind of action, and expand it. You are right about them starving. This seemed more about them getting needed food and goods than a total sit-in type protest. But the people have tasted freedom from curfew now, and hopefully will continue to peacefully resist. This is an exerpt from an article: "For the second day in a row thousands of Palestinians have taken to the streets of Nablus in direct defiance of an Israeli army curfew. Shops and banks in the West Bank town opened to accommodate the customers, who have been living under curfew for more than a month. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2159867.stm Any Brutality from Israels part in the face of real non-violent protest will not serve them. It will only hurt them the way terrorism hurts the Palestinians. Public opinion around the world will force U.S. to take real action and not just admonishing Israel for their indiscriminate military actions.
They could stop illegal settlements, stop policies that discriminate against the Palestinians, treat them justly leave the occupied areas, and start working toward a Palestinians state.
I think Israel tried to be peaceful...didn't work, it only left them open to be sucker punched by the evil terrorists...No more sucker punches! Get tough! Go for the throat!
