HS, you missed my point. I just want to take a footnote of the power of TV. And not everyone on street is student. Nor is it true that no one throws rocks until 'crushed", it's worse than throwing rocks at times. The point also is, you don't shoot kids throwing rocks at tanks.
michecon, if you were there then I'll admit you would know better. But my opinion was not formed by the single picture or the TV, rather from extensive research on the subject. I merely point out the 'international' perception of the protests in Tienamen was different than the Palestinians because the protest was non-violent in nature. The confrontation between the man and the tank typifies this. I think its telling that the PLA had to bring in units from outlying regions (ie not associated with local people) to crush the demonstration, just as its telling that the demonstration had NO violence before the crackdown, or that police officials clearly were mingling with the students before the crackdown.
I wasn't, but my wife was. I'm just trying to present a more balanced pictuer. I agree, students are non-violent in large part. That has to do with the politics and power structure at the time. The whole situation is too complicated to discuss here. (Sorry for my digress to the others.) The moral is, it's not easy to tell every shades of the story that happen thousands miles away, one needs keep that in mind when it comes to taking on other people's business.
That's also cool. But don't you think it' easier to choose the right action for adults? Yeh, you will say, some adults should control kids. (In all fairness, can parents really totally control kids?). But, nothing justify taking extreme action to armless kids, even when there parents isn't doing the right thing. Otherwise, you are in shaky moral grounds yoursellf. (See my post to Dada).
Justice would be to punish those guilty of the suicide bombings. Justice would be to allow the Palestinians to have businesses that can compete economically. Justice would be to allow Palestinians the same water allotment that Israelis get. The list could go on and on. But I can tell that Justice isn't killing someone for throwing a rock.
Maybe those kids shouldn't throw rocks at tanks, and maybe they should be punished. But that punishment should not be being shot down. Most people consider that kind of punishment unjust. A kid in shcool who speaks without raising his hand is punished. But the punishment usually isn't expulsion. Punishment and reprisals should be in proportion to the initial crime. In fact the geneva convention stipulates this.
The Isrealis and Palestinians are both wrong and should both take a step back to sort things out. They are going no where as long as confrontation and mutual hatred go rampant. Tougher stance and more oppression will only result in more repercussions and escalations. Speaking of taking tougher stance and taking care of things once and for all, on the scale of conflicts there, nothing short of a genicide can stop Palestinians go against Isreal. Shooting every susceptible or hostile person won't bring peace or even containment, unless Isreal stops treating Palestinians people in general as subhumans they don't deserve support. The Hamas killing innocent people doesn't excuse the Isreal government ordering random killing at the slightest offense. The Hamas is a terroristic group and Isreal has a government. The Isreal governement should not follow the path of some terrorists, after all, two wrongs don't make a right.
panda, The Israelis have TRIED to take a step back and all they get is more suicide bombings.... The only thing that Hamas understands is violence, and I think it is time that Israel brought it to them. As for those who are mentioning all those kids that died in the raid on the Hamas leader...yes, I think that is horrible, but I think it is MORE horrible to use your kids as a human shield. Refman, You forgot a few who have also used this policy....Eisenhower & Shchwartzkoff to name 2.
Turns out all 7 people killed in the Hebrew University bombing were U.S. citizens (2 had dual citizenship). Despite our government's public (and understandable) proclamations to the contrary, I'd hope there's very little official resistance to another "Defensive Shield" type operation. Saw this published yesterday & thought I'd share it: The forces of evil have struck yet again. For them, the entire State of Israel, its citizens, and its institutions are legitimate targets - this time, however, the target was chosen with much care. The attack required planning and determination in order to overcome the many layers of security and strike at the very heart of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. This was not just an attack on our institution; it was an attack on a symbol of the rebirth of Israel in its own land, on a modern state that is rooted in tradition but embraces openess. This attack was perpetrated against a university founded upon the principles of pluralism and tolerance, a university that seeks to understand the world in which we live and that - despite the wave of terror and murder we are experiencing - aspires to promote peace and understanding with its neighbors in this region. The aim of the terrorists responsible for the horrific scene that I witnessed several minutes after the explosion was to bring an end to those values that the Hebrew University embraces and embodies - understanding, tolerance, and the quest for peace. The victims include many members of the University community - students, teachers, employees, and visitors from all parts of the world. They are Jews and Arabs, and citizens of the US, Korea, France, Italy, and other countries. This attack is a crime not only against Israel or the Jewish people; it is a crime against the free and enlightened world. As I stood facing the destruction, the pools of blood and the wounded, I was forced to ask myself how we can continue in our research, teaching and other vibrant activity while we mourn for the victims. The answer is clear and it is expressed by the Hebrew word davka, 'despite everything'. The perpetrators of such heinous acts may kill those dear to us, but they cannot destroy our vision and our determination to continue to create a society that is based on reason and mutual understanding, and to work as a community of researchers and students which welcomes Israelis of all backgrounds and guests from all over the world. Above all, we will not let them kill our aspirations for peace. Professor Menachem Magidor President, Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
I just don't understand why the Israeli's refuse to hear the Saudi Proposal that the US agreed with? Israel stops OCCUPYING the territories and lets them live without curfews and other restrictions and just gets out. Israel will recieve the recognition by the entire Arab World and the Palestinians will get their state. Yasser Arafat agreet to this, the PLO agreed to this. I think the answer is simple, to this day Israel continues to build settlements for new colonists in Palestinian areas. It is happening in this moment. Slowly but surely all the Palestinians are leaving or dying. Today, another house is being bulldozed to make another Israeli settlement. More families are losing their homes and being forced to live in tents in the refugee camps. More families are being destroyed. If it was me, I would fight and i'm sure everyone here would as well. If someone destroyed my home, took my land, and then placed curfews on me so that I could only leave my home for a few hours at specific times twice a week, I would fight back. If F-16's shot one ton missiles into the heart of my city, I would fight. They have no guns, no weapons, no freedom. They fight with the one thing they have, their lives. They sacrifice their lives for the freedom of their children and families. The method is horrible, and non-combatants should never be targeted. Palestinian groups such as Hamas have stated that "our children are not safe on the streets and are never secure, now their children will feel the same" Its easier to call people "evil" rather to understand the whole situation. Would Any of Us do diferently under the same conditions??
Sure, that's a great idea. Just let everybody move freely. I'm sure no suicide bombers would take advantage of that! WHY DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE MOVEMENT RESTRICTIONS? Why didn't Yasser and the PLO take the last deal? And even if Yasser accepted ANY deal, he cannot or will not stop those who continue to try and eliminate Israel. Its like buying the Brooklyn Bridge. Its useless unless they can be assured the more radical elements would be turned over or eliminated. Hopefully you would try and reign in the more radical elements of the community in an effort to make peace through non-violence, instead of expanding the cycle of violence and bringing you people further into a conflict they cannot win. Try non-violence FIRST. They seem to be blowing an awful lot of stuff up for people with no weapons, Khan. They seem to be shooting a lot of people for someone with no weapons. Seems like their leadership is more than willing to sacrifice their lives, and their childrens lives. Not evil, just lost. Absolutely. Are you saying, Khan, that you would intentionally target buses filled with children or schools? I definitely would consider being a guerilla fighter if the US ever got taken over, but I wouldn't target kids.
I think you may be a little on the paranoid side. After WW2 we paid reparations to both countries we trounced so there were obviously concessions. So not only paranoid...you're flat out wrong. It's NOT the same thing.
Ironic isn't it that as the rights have been squeezed more and more, the Palestinians have waged more violent attacks. Obviously, demeaning them and oppressing them is not making them roll over. Hayes Street, I don't think you truly understand the last deal. Manipulative statistics like 95% of the land don't tell the whole truth about the Israeli infrastructure within the Palestinian state and the restricted access to most major roads and lack of real political, economic or military autonomy. They would have been puppets of the Israeli government and were intelligent not to take that proposal. Its Ironic that Hamas had requested a cease-fire and discussions a few days before they dropped a one-ton bomb on a neighborhood, now ask yourself if the Israeli's will listen to peace. I think the Palestinians have just realized that the Israeli's treat them like Jews in the Ghettos pre WWII and refuse to be subjugated to that kind of treatment. I'm not saying we would become suicide bombers, but we would fight to the death under those conditions.
If somebody forcibly took your home and made it known that you had NO rights, then I'm sure you wouldn't grab a placard and marker. You'd grab a gun and go to town...just like anybody else would. Well not being able to leave your house except for a few hours a week makes it hard to have non-violent protest. You have to do things like procure food (like they have any money) and other necessities during that time. If they tried to have the protest at any other time they would be shot without question. Non-Jews living in Israel simply don't have the rights that we have here. In fact they have NO rights. And the Palestinians should be different why? I agree that kids shouldn't be the target, but the Israelis have done their fair share of killing children.
I didn't mention the kids that died in the f-16 attack, but I don't think those kids were used as a human shield. Of the the 14 that died, only four were in the same building as the Hamas military leader. How can someone be using ten people as shields when they are in other buildings?
I agree with HayesStreet about using non-violence. Yes they would have to break curfew to pursue non-violent methods, and they should break curfew. That could be their first non-violent protest. They could make sure cameras were around, and gather just before curfew was about to take place. Then everyone would just sit down at the time curfew was about go into effect. If 10,000 or so palestinians did this, I think it would be incredible. They could announce that they were starting their non-violence means of protesting. If Israel reacted brutally the camera or videos or whatever would spill it to the world. More protests would then have to start and they should be a regular thing, until the Palestinians had their demands for more equality, and statehood met. I understand the anger, and the injustice that might want to make everyone use violent means and throwing rocks to retaliate. I would feel like doing that too. But hopefully I could see that it would be futile and other ways might be more effective. I agree with Khan as far easing up the movement restrictions and curfews. I don't believe there would be more suicide bombings than there already are. Tightening those restrictions has halted the bombings.
No, actually I wouldn't. I've learned some history lessons. As in India, massacre of unarmed civilians peacefully protesting would turn the tide in negotiations. Even Israelis, as Glynch and others have pointed out in the past doubt the course of non-stop violence in response to violence. World opinion would be unified behind the Palestinians. How many on this board have you seen say they can't tell the difference between what the Israelis are doing and what the Palestinians are doing. When the British put the economic and material squeeze on the Indians, the Indians unified to find another way. The march to the sea for salt, the making of their own textiles.... If I was in a geographically appropriate place I might 'take to the hills' for some guerilla warfare, but I wouldn't go hide in grandma's house with my kids after blowing stuff up either. If all those that wanted to be suicide bombers instead peacefully marched in protest, and then were cut down, the WORLD would see them as martyrs, and would act accordingly. Now only those on the fringes see it that way. Yes, but the Israelis don't TARGET children. The Palestinians do target innocent civilians.
Once again, Mr. Khan, your post illustrates that you do not know what you are talking about. The minute the Israeli army starts rounding up Palestinians, sending them to concentration camps, performing grotesque medical experiments on them and then cooking them alive in ovens, call me. Until then, your post yet again points out your continued cluelessness regarding the history of the Holocaust.
