Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child

this is no news....its been happening for years....

 

Historians have long debated at what point something stops being "current events" and starts becoming "history". I have no reasonable standard to offer, as I am not a historian. The general consensus is that events become history a generation or two after they occur.

So would it be history? No. They would suffer from the consequences of their actions. Just like Hitler did.

And just like Hitler, you can't go back and kill 6 million Germans in retaliation for the Holocaust. When that same amount of time had passed for the slaughter of the Palestinian people, it would be just as unfair to punish the Israelis again.

Maybe not publicly, but when you can kill a ten year old girl in cold blood, and get away with murder (literally), they don't have to come out and call you a hero. You're getting a hero's treatment.

Yeah, with watered-down charges.

"The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing."

"...was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions ..."

Yeah, they really came down hard on him.

Right. Because you wouldn't hate anyone who kicked you off of your land and then oppressed and killed your people.

And that makes what difference? The example is one of a certain people being deemed unjust possessors of a land and being removed from it in favor of the land's original inhabitants.

Just as happened in the Middle East.

I did not say that they should go away. However, if they're interested in staying around and living (as I would imagine they are) then perhaps they should be prepared to make a few concessions, and perhaps we should be the ones to force them to make those concessions.

Allowing them to continue their oppression and slaughter of the Palestinian people will never lead to peace, and must be stopped.

I beg to differ.

The Jews were enslaved? Aww.

So were the blacks and Indians and the first Hispanics.

The Jews are victims of mass genocide? Oh no!

So are the peoples of Africa.

The Jews had their rights taken from them? An outrage!

Why don't we ask our Japanese-Americans about internment and the denial of rights. We actually had something to do with that one.

Maybe you're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. You and every other person who likes to pretend that the Jews are the only ones who have had it so very, very bad.

They do not deserve special treatment for what they have gone through, historically. No one does.

Not so. The Palestinians suffered a complete removal from their land, in the interest of "fairness".

I'm saying that we should tell the Israelis that in the interest of "survival", it would be appropriate for them to relinquish some of the land that they were given.

I'm not advocating taking all of the land away from the Israelis and forcing them to live as second-class citizens. That falls under the category of "stupid and unfair". And is exactly what happened to the Palestinians.

What I am saying is that if you want to see peace, you will make the Israelis give up some of the land that is not rightfully theirs.

If we made Israel give them land back, those would be the Israeli concessions. We would encourage them to make those concessions, lest they face the US not giving them their allowance.

The Palestinian concessions would envolve preventing any further terrorist attacks. We would encourage Hamas to stop their terrorist attacks, lest they face the full force of the US military. Or maybe just our planes.

I'm not a military general or the President. I can't make that decision.

But if we signed peace treaties with both Israel and Palestine, with the absolute promise that we will destroy whoever attacks our allies, we would go a long way towards gaining the respect of the other Middle Eastern nations and giving the Israel-Palestine conflict a good reason not to escalate further.

 

methodically, systematically, even hydromatically....one by one, likud will triumph in its complete liquidation of the palestinian ghetto

 

I'm glad you care so much about me but you totally missed my point. I'm not condoning this soldiers actions. Im saying that we never have this type of outrage from the Palestinians when a suicide bomber kills innocent Israelis. Until people like you realize that both sides are responsible, nothing will happen to bring peace.

 

Cohen........

You gotta be SHI*ting me!!!! The Jews have had it the worst?!? IN HISTORY!!! this is a pathetic statement! sorry. But African Americans were treated as slaves FOR YEARS AND YEARS...do you know the difference between being treated like a slave and (the Jewish situation)...looks like you hav'nt studied your history... do you know why Hitler wanted to kill all Jews...do you know the story behind it? probably not (not that i am saying it was right)...By the way the British went to INDIA they killed more than 6 million people?!?!?! But this is not a big deal in history...that was a Holocaust in itself..... but since their population was big enough it was'nt a "big' thing in history... anyway there is also a reason why the U.S did not allow Jews refuge at that time...read more about it won't find it in textbooks though...can't give you a history lesson here..

 

You might actually want to back up some of your points instead of "read more about it you won't find it in textbooks though".

 

Originally posted by wizardball
Cohen........

You gotta be SHI*ting me!!!! The Jews have had it the worst?!? IN HISTORY!!! this is a pathetic statement! sorry.

Not really. A cursory review of history would easily support it.

But African Americans were treated as slaves FOR YEARS AND YEARS...do you know the difference between being treated like a slave and (the Jewish situation)...

Uh, I seem to recall Jews being slaves, do you not?


looks like you hav'nt studied your history...

Who hasn't?


do you know why Hitler wanted to kill all Jews...do you know the story behind it? probably not (not that i am saying it was right)...

Because he was a lunatic?

I don't see the point though, why do you raise the issue about what Hitler thought? I am very intrigued.


By the way the British went to INDIA they killed more than 6 million people?!?!?! But this is not a big deal in history...that was a Holocaust in itself.....

Where did I say other people haven't had bad things happen to them. Wait, I said bad things did happen to others.

It seems that for any bad thing that some ethnicity or religion has endured, you can find at least one comparable example that the Jews experienced.


but since their population was big enough it was'nt a "big' thing in history... anyway there is also a reason why the U.S did not allow Jews refuge at that time...read more about it won't find it in textbooks though...can't give you a history lesson here..

How cryptic. Please share your insight with us.



- - -
And for others here, FWIW, this is a total diversion from the thread. As for how bad the Jews have had it, it's mostly just an interesting history discussion, IMO. It is also useful for understanding aspects of the Israeli views or today's anti-semites, but it certainly does not mean some award for the Jews or that anything is due them.

 

Cohen...

Answer me this question please, when did the slavery of African Americans end? ...and when did it start?? debate over...hell ask any african american guy...he'll answer that one for you in a jippy.



Secondly the Jews being slaves ending long time ago, they have been rewarded or compensated Very favourably.( Who runs the World Bank???) and... plus the most influential corporations are Jewish in the U.S....corporations run countries.Watch the movie Network will give you an idea how the world is now.

Well you have to see the point of a person who WAS a great leader(he was rated the top leader in history by many historians) ... he got soo many to follow his command...that means they were lunatics also?!?!... making yourself oblivious to what reasons there are is being ignorant... just calling him a lunatic and moving on does'nt make sense... you have to see how a country lead by a "lunatic" nearly took over the world...

 

two things.
a) wizard you are an idiot. remember the pharoh is the epitome of evil dictator? and who did he go off on? the jews. and hitler isn't far behind. so really...jews have had it pretty bad.
however
b) cohen can you please accept that many of us have huge problems with israel...and i at least fail to see the proper reasoning as to why israel had to be placed in arab lands. by saying this i dont believe im anti-semitic at all. just anti-israel.

 

insane man

hahha...little info for you....the Israeli’s in Egypt were a minority...There were many people oppressed(pyramids were not made by Jews slaves only!!!!!!!!!!!!!)...the history books YOU study are silly and inaccurate… silly little child… if you want to go that back… the Jews themselves ordered for the massacre of regions based on their religion….sh*t I don’t wanna get into it that far back… too much inaccuracy on everyone’s part… everyone’s hands are dirty…don’t take an example such as that to support what we are trying to argue…anyways I’ve had enough…no more from me....insane man read a little about the trade market in Africa in history...it will answer your question....and he's calling me an idiot

 

This is sad. A thirteen year old innocent girl is murdered in cold blood, and all some of you can do is discuss the technicalities of politics.

I dont care if the girl is Muslim or Jew. The murderer should get the same thing happened to him.

 

relax wixard

Here's what wizard is trying to say(i think):

The people who made the Pyramids were the farmers mainly(wizard). Because of the Nile floods they were without work, and instead worked for the pharoh(not by choice at times). They made most of the pyramids.

The jews play in this was: They did not accept the pharoh to the diety(god) since he wanted to be proclaimed as such. Hence, he punished them, and used them as slaves to do his work. Though the jews are never that prevelantly mentioned in the Egyptian history books. They(Jews) were a tribe in Eygpt, so yes your right they are not the majority, by far a minority.

I have to agree with wizard on the fact that African American's were treated worse than the Jews; historically speaking.

insane man. the Jews according to their religon; have the god given right to be there.(Arab land as you call it). and that is why they are where they are. no other reason.

wizard is right you need a history lesson

 

Historically speaking, there's just no comparison.

Jews were slaves for a couple of hundred years, murdered en masse on multiple occasions in multiple countries, entirely evicted from the lands they lived on ... repeatedly ... from numerous nations, had almost half their population eradicated in the last century, suffered from racism in every country they have lived in, were second-class citizens by law in many nations, and essentially have rarely had a 'safe-haven' were they could live in peace, as equals, without threat. This has gone on for what, 3000 years?

African American history began with the slave trade in the 1600s, although I believe most didn't start appearing until the 1700s. Two- to Three-hundred years. I just don't see how you can compare the two, and actually, I don't care. It was a mildly (very) entertaining exercise, but tt's really unimportant who suffered the most. Just a useless topic, eh?


- - -
And I am confused as to why people mention 'African Americans' and not include all Africans involved in the slave trade. Only about 1/3rd came to the Americas, and I doubt the other 20 million fared much better where they went. Why no compassion for them?

 

Your last response to me pretty well locked it for ya. I've wasted enough time...take care.

 

Who are you refrerring to?

 

If one really wants to look at slavery, the truth is that Africans happened to be the slaves available when the plantations in America thought they needed them. There were slaves of every race, creed and color throughout history. I think the United States has a "fixation" on Africans as slaves because of our history. Look at the history of slavery in ancient Greece and Rome, from which we got so much of our culture, to see just how "open minded" slave owners were. They didn't get hung up on whether the slaves were African or Jewish... heck, they were more likely to be seen as a "novelty."


Sorry, I tried not to read this thread for a long time, and then just decided to. Things seem all over the map, as best I can tell. (no surprise there) The Israeli soldier should be charged with murder, if the story is true. That's pretty cut and dried. I don't see what this one incident has to do with the atrocities of the Palestinian suicide bombers, or the extreme government of Sharon. I do think, with the current changes happening in the Palestinian leadership, the changes in American relations with the Middle East since the invasion of Iraq, and the re-election of Bush, along with major changes at the State Department, along with a host of other things going on in the region, that the prosecution of this soldier for murder might be a good signal to everyone else, from Israel, that it is no longer "business as usual," and that it truly is time for change... from both sides.

You've got to start somewhere.



Keep D&D Civil!!

 

What is the policy on dealing with Palestinians who enter the restricted zone? If, as was stated on the record, entering that area carries a penalty of death, then the soldier should not be charged with murder. In America, I believe you can be shot for tresspassing onto a military installation, and that is our own citizens, not a group of people who send countless terrorists against us. The soldier should be removed from duty, at least any duty that would require him to have contact with Palestinians, since he does not seem able to assess a threat very well, and should face whatever charges the military deems appropriate (seemingly minor, from the article).

It should also be kept in mind that 13 YO suicide bombers are not unheard of. To us, it is horrifying to think of killing an eighth or ninth grader, but to an IDF trooper, that 13 YO is a potential enemy combatant. If the Palestinians did not send their children off to die, not to mention glorify "martyrs" that girl would have been a lot safer. If she had not gone into an area where she was not supposed to be, she would have been safer as well. I don't think she deserved to die, but I would not say that she was murdered.

 

You are assuming that it was a split second decision and that he had suicide bombers in mind. The article are saying he was warned by other soldiers that the victim of this shooting wasn't a threat.

Also I know people who have wandered on to military bases because there was some uncrowded beach there, and good surf. They had there driver's license info copied, there license plates taken down and were told to leave and that they would be arrested if they ever came back(this was before 9/11). I accidentally drifted into the Marine base once, but I just paddeled back to other side as quick as I could and then walked down the beach far away.

 

also when 80% of the country is 'off limits' to most of the palestinians for the most part....its more like segregation forced with a punishment of death....which seems a lil excessive dont you think?