You realize that Hamas has successfully used this tactic about 50 times in the past 5 years to shut down the peace process, right? At some point, Israel has to realize it doesn't work. Basically, Israel's stance is that we respond to violence with violence. That's fine in theory. The reality is that they simply give anyone who doesn't want peace a veto over the peace process. Every time peace gets close, Hamas just has to blow something up, Israel will respond in kind, and all hell breaks loose. Basically, Israel guarantees they will never have peace with that strategy.
Yea, your right... Hamas is simply bonafide occupational terrorists who don't want peace at all...At some point Israel has realized if it does nothing or simply acts defensive they will continuously take it in the form of continuing attacks someway, somehow...The only logic is to get offensive on Hamas, and the palestinian militants. Thus, I can only be affirmed with this ideology... This is only logical since Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel,...and disregarding action towards Hamas only invites the continued existance of such a mindset through action without consequence... As long as Hamas exists and is held embraced by palestinians as brothers there will be NO PEACE...There is NO peace because the mindset, ideology and existance of Hamas assures that...Israel won it's existance through war tactics,...and is existing now because of war tactics...The same can be said for all legitimate nations to some extent...Anything less means no existance for Israel. Imagine if, and there are some who would rather us take it after 9/11...Any action abroad does not give peace a chance...Ya-ya so forth and so on from the liberal pussyfooters of America...My first reaction is I want to give you a good kick in the mouth and an elbow across your nose! If anyone knows war tactics,...It is Israel...I personally think pound for pound the greatest nation of war tactics on Earth...Who else could slap silly multiple countries attacking them in the Yom Kippor 73 conflict?...and start up as a nation so incredulously?...It was a beautiful thing to learn what they they had to do to survive...In fact it still is, and they still do...
Israel is not trying to eradicate Hamas - never has, never will, because even they are smart enough to know that this only makes their problem worse. The smarter solution is to address the second part of what you said - cause them to not be embraced by the Palestinians. They embrace Hamas because they feel that is the only way to a better future, and everytime Israel reacts like they are right not, it only reinforces that belief. If you push forward the peace process and show there is an alternative, support for Hamas will naturally drop - but it takes time and a commitment to that, instead of reacting to every Hamas instigation with ridiculous and open violence. The article you posted - 5 civilians in a hospital injured - are exactly the problem Israel creates for themself. Israel is great at war tactics - and if they want to continue to be at war for the next 100 years, by all means, they can continue what they are doing. What Israel is terrible at is the part about establishing peace. This is the same lesson the Bush administration is belatedly learning in Iraq - they are learning that all that junk about "hearts and minds" that they dismissed early on turns out to be very important. You don't win a war against terrorism through brute strength, and Israel's tactics will never, ever win over hearts & minds.
Good job by Israel. They need to put these clowns in their place. Hamas is in no position to negotiate for any prisoner exchanges. The longer these Palestinian terrorist hold the Israeli soldier, the more devastation will be delivered.
I agree that the way to keep them from being embraced is to put pressure on the palestinians who hold Hamas' hands on the way to killing innocent women and children...If they don't, there is no incentive to NOT hold the hand on the way to the women and children killings... Either palestine agrees to recognize Israel and become a state or suffer justified exile...Either Hamas and palestine militants stop the crap or the response will be decisive...There is no winning the hearts and minds of your terrorists...They need to be eradicated...period.
There is no finite number of terrorists. By the Israel never acted purely defensively and just took it while the Palestinians committed acts of terrorism. Even before there was an Israel officially those that would become the govt. of Israel attacked and possessed Palestinian lands. At times they even massacared entire villages. There was never a period when Israel tried to do nothing and just took it. They have always used offensive force, and it has never worked.
I don't think you realize how F'd up both sides are, it's not like one's the victim and the other is the aggressor.
So you really believe the solution is "stay the course that has never worked and never will bring peace"?
By destroying vital civilian infrastructure (bridges, power plants, etc.), Israel is in violation of Geneva protocol-1 (Articles 52 and 54).
As oposed to the mindset of maintaining permanent settlements, control of Palestinian borders (even though Israel withdrew from Gaza and parts of the West Bank they still maintain overall control over the borders of those areas), destruction of Palestinian infrastructure, sanctions on the government, and withholding of tax revenue raised in the occupied territories, many of those were done even during the time of supposed peace. There is NO PEACE because both sides are unwilling to do what is needed to for PEACE. All you're advocating is war tactics and both sides both Israel and Hamas are doing that which is why there's been nearly continuous war. Agree and the sad thing is majorities of both sides in opinion polls want peace and understand that the path to doing so is to have two states existing side by side. The problem is that extremists, paranoia and posturing within the leadership of both sides are stopping that from happening. Everyone knows what the solution is. Israel returns to 1967 borders, the Palestinians drop right of return, an independent Palestinian state is established and free access granted to respective holy sites. Neither side has the moral courage to stand up to extremists in their camps to implement that solution.
Not defending Israel's actions here because I have not thought it all through wrt to these events, but what would you recommend that Israel do to get their soldier returned?
From what I am reading, it sounds like there was (or would have been) some political pressure being put on Hamas from the international community. That alone would have been a positive because it gives Israel some much needed international support. Not that that is an ideal solution, but this method certainly isn't working and is going to have all sorts of lasting consequences. Blowing up infrastructure just makes it that much harder for a moderate Palestinian government to provide basic needs - if it can't do that, it can never gain legitimacy over extremist groups. Beyond that, the Hamas political and military wing were already splintering - this was a chance to force that split even more. Instead, Israel's given them a rallying cry and might bring them back together in a more extremist position. The Hamas political wing was trying to moderate before the incident, and as noted in a post above, was working on a possible consideration of recognizing Israel. This sets all of that back and only hurts Israel.
Both sides are messed up, I never said one above the other was totally clean... but my partiality is towards Israel for various reasons...
The government is losing its reason http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733036.html By Haaretz Editorial 06/30/06 "Haaretz" -- -- Bombing bridges that can be circumvented both by car and on foot; seizing an airport that has been in ruins for years; destroying a power station, plunging large parts of the Gaza Strip into darkness; distributing flyers suggesting that people be concerned about their fate; a menacing flight over Bashar Assad's palace; and arresting elected Hamas officials: The government wishes to convince us that all these actions are intended only to release the soldier Gilad Shalit. But the greater the government's creativity in inventing tactics, the more it seems to reflect a loss of direction rather than an overall conception based on reason and common sense. On the face of it, Israel wishes to exert increasing pressure both on Hamas' political leadership and on the Palestinian public, in order to induce it to pressure its leadership to release the soldier. At the same time, the government claims that Syria - or at least Khaled Meshal, who is living in Syria - holds the key. If so, what is the point of pressuring the local Palestinian leadership, which did not know of the planned attack and which, when it found out, demanded that the kidnappers take good care of their victim and return him? The tactic of pressuring civilians has been tried before, and more than once. The Lebanese, for example, are very familiar with the Israeli tactic of destroying power stations and infrastructure. Entire villages in south Lebanon have been terrorized, with the inhabitants fleeing in their thousands for Beirut. But what also happens under such extreme stress is that local divisions evaporate and a strong, united leadership is forged. In the end, Israel was forced both to negotiate with Hezbollah and to withdraw from Lebanon. Now, the government appears to be airing out its Lebanon catalogue of tactics and implementing it, as though nothing has been learned since then. One may assume that the results will be similar this time around as well. Israel also kidnapped people from Lebanon to serve as bargaining chips in dealings with the kidnappers of Israeli soldiers. Now, it is trying out this tactic on Hamas politicians. As the prime minister said in a closed meeting: "They want prisoners released? We'll release these detainees in exchange for Shalit." By "these detainees," he was referring to elected Hamas officials. The prime minister is a graduate of a movement whose leaders were once exiled, only to return with their heads held high and in a stronger position than when they were deported. But he believes that with the Palestinians, things work differently. As one who knows that all the Hamas activists deported by Yitzhak Rabin returned to leadership and command positions in the organization, Olmert should know that arresting leaders only strengthens them and their supporters. But this is not merely faulty reasoning; arresting people to use as bargaining chips is the act of a gang, not of a state. The government was caught up too quickly in a whirlwind of prestige mixed with fatigue. It must return to its senses at once, be satisfied with the threats it has made, free the detained Hamas politicians and open negotiations. The issue is a soldier who must be brought home, not changing the face of the Middle East.
Maybe in a very simplistic world where your options are "attack" or "nothing". Of course, we're dealing with the real world here, so no, not at all.
Interesting twist... Gaza power plant hit by Israeli airstrike is insured by US agency http://www.boston.com/news/world/mi...by_israeli_airstrike_is_insured_by_us_agency/ WASHINGTON -- The Palestinian power plant bombed by Israeli forces Tuesday is insured by a US government agency, and US officials say they expect American funds to be used to pay for the damage. The destruction of the 140-megawatt reactor, the only one in the Gaza Strip, threatens to create a humanitarian disaster because the plant supplies electricity to two-thirds of Gaza's 1.3 million residents and operates pumps that provide water supplies. But paying a claim on the plant, which was insured for $48 million, could prove problematic for the United States, which cut off funding for all infrastructure projects in the Palestinian territories after the militant group Hamas won legislative elections in January. Administration officials said the restrictions on working with a Hamas-led government could further complicate the repair of the electric facility, which could take weeks, if not months, to fix because of the escalating violence in Gaza. The bombing of the plant could become a lasting problem for the Bush administration, which is appealing for an end to the showdown between Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza. Israeli warplanes hit the power plant two days after Palestinian militants attacked an Israeli Army unit, killing two soldiers and taking another one hostage. Israeli forces responded yesterday by entering the Gaza Strip for the first time since Israel's historic pullout from the territory nine months ago, bombing the plant and three bridges. The power plant cost about $150 million and took more than five years to build. Plans for it began in 1999, when two private investors -- the now-defunct Enron Corp. and a Palestinian-born construction mogul, Said Khoury -- laid down the blueprint for making the Palestinian territories less reliant on buying electricity from Israel. The project faltered when violence broke out in Gaza in 2000 and when Enron collapsed into bankruptcy, but Khoury continued to push forward. His construction company's US subsidiary, Connecticut-based Morganti Group, bought out Enron's stake in the plant. In 2002, the plant began operating, becoming the first such facility regulated by the Palestinian Energy Authority. In 2004, it reached full commercial capacity and its owners were able to purchase $48 million in ``political risk" insurance from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation , an arm of the US government that provides American businesses with financing abroad and promotes US interests in emerging markets. The US Investment Corporation -- set up in 1971 with US taxpayer funds -- had been supportive of the project from the beginning, arranging the first meeting between investors for the plant, according to the Bloomberg news service. Few commercial insurance companies insure such projects against political violence, but the US Investment Corporation does so to encourage development in emerging markets, according to Lawrence Spinelli, a spokesman for the Investment Corporation. The insurance that Morganti purchased covers ``political violence," which includes ``wars, acts of terrorism, things like that," Spinelli said. To be paid for the damage, the company must file a claim, and the Investment Corporation must determine whether the claim is covered by the policy, Spinelli said. The corporation raises its reserve funds through insurance premiums and other charges to its clients, but its funds are kept in the US Treasury and are controlled by Congress. That could be a problem for those who want to see the power plant swiftly rebuilt. After the election of Hamas in January, a host of congressmen introduced bills designed to freeze US assistance to the Palestinian territories to prevent any financial benefit from reaching Hamas, designated as a terrorist organization. In April, the State Department announced it would cut off all planned funding for infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank. But advocates for Palestinians say that the plant must be repaired, even if the US government is forced to pay for it. ``If you take out two-thirds of the power in a place like Gaza, and if this is the source of electricity that powers pumps for water, you may have a major crisis on your hand in short order," said Ed Abington , a former consultant to the Palestinian Authority.
Major already commented on this, but I can't let it go. The are more than two options. The options are not 1. attack 2. do nothing. It is incredibly simplistic to pretend like those are the only two options.
I suggest start with the appropriate level of response meritted. Hint: an invasion that has already led to death(s) and many millions of infrastructure damage that will inevitably lead to old people dying of heat stroke and on and on is not an appropriate response to the kidnapping of one individual. Perhaps the Israel could just negotiate. Or perhaps the Israelis could kidnap ONE Palestinian as they routinely do, and offer to trade.
