Israeli documents show a deliberate policy of keeping Gazans hungry

No, the Israeli government sucks, not Israel or the vast majority of Israelis. Their form of democracy sucks, in my opinion, because it gives far to much power to tiny political parties, tiny political parties that have an influence all out of proportion to their numbers in the elections. Until Israel does something to amend its constitution to reduce their influence, Israel is far too likely to continue to be under the sway of extremists, extremists that cause as much damage to the prospect of peace between Israel and its neighbors as the extremists who hold far to much influence within the borders of most of its neighbors.

 

I agree with you. As a Pakistani-American, I visited Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Eilat, and the West Bank last summer. The Israeli people are some of the nicest I've met during my travels. Can't obviously say the same about their government.

 

And you're like a wannabe Hitler, just shock full of ignorance.

 

A two state solution is both inevitable and necessary.

 

all i can say is that, this whole thing...will not end well.

 

We have a bizarre state of affairs with Cuba. You are not allowed to go there if you are an American citizen. We have a military base in Cuba that has American troops on one side of a no man's land and Cuban troops on the other side. There are persistent rumors that the US government has attempted to kill Castro. We are not in a shooting war, but we are hardly at peace. A better objection on your part would have been that the US embargo against Cuba only pertains to trade with the US.

And as such they are required to provide or allow food, education, health care, etc. Unfortunately, they are outside of the territory and there is an armed hostile force inside the territory, so it is much different than most occupations of the kind contemplated in the Geneva conventions (more like when the US and other allies were occupying Germany post WWII).

Thank you. These links do a much better job of laying out the situation in Gaza than that from the original post. Instead of claiming the document released by the Israeli government shows things that it does not show, they give accounts from the inside by humanitarian workers.

If these accounts are accurate, I concede that the blockade could be viewed as collective punishment. I think these organizations are executing the wrong plan in trying to get the blockade lifted, they should instead focus on getting the Israelis to allow more sufficient quantities of fuel and building materials. Such would be more likely to succeed. It is strange that they are seeing shortfalls in (for example) fuel for power generation while the document provided earlier showed a surplus of fuel for power generation. Seems like a problem in determining how much fuel is needed. Seems like all they need is better accounting to get out of the collective punishment possibility.

I was unaware that Egypt was independently blockading the border on their side. One would think that a fellow Arab and Muslim country would do a better job of allowing in humanitarian aid.

Of course there is going to be infrastructure damage, the Israelis moved tanks and troops in after Hamas shot a bunch of rockets out of Gaza. I will agree that more construction material should be allowed in to work on repairing the damage. The rest seems to be largely related to the fuel shortage if I am reading your links correctly (can't run water pumps, can't run sewage treatment, can't run factories, etc).

Apparently so. How much of that can be attributed to the blockade though, and how much to the military action that occurred mid-blockade in response to rocket fire from Gaza.
Also, it is apparent that the Israeli government is ignorant of the situation in Gaza as well. What the Hamas government should do is agree to disarm and turn over responsibility for defense to UN peacekeepers. That would allow better access for humanitarian aid workers and supplies, and would result in better security for Israel. I don't see it happening.

Actually, the list was compiled by the Israeli government. It was released to the NGO by the Coordinator of Government Activity in the Territories (COGAT) an office of the Ministry of Defense.

 

The objection to the false analogy still stands because the Fourth Geneva Conventions applies to situations of declared war and when armed conflict arises. It is not something that would apply to a trade embargo.

They effectively control Gaza's land border, Gaza's naval border, and Gaza's airspace. It is a prime example of a military occupation.

If you concede that the blockade is a form of collective punishment, why do you not agree with the assessment that it should be removed? The direct military advantage Israel gains from keeping things that may or may not be used to build weapons by Hamas does not exceed the damage that has happened to the civilian population.

It's not independently. It's part of a deal between the US, Israel, and Egypt. The Philadelphi Route guarantees Egypt nearly $2bn in aid annually from the US.

That is all you got from that? Infrastructure damage? 61% don't know where their next meal will come from. 25% of the population was living in poverty prior to the blockade. That number has TRIPLED. That is clear evidence that the blockade causes excessive damage to the civilian population. There's also a bunch of other stuff (if you bother to read about the situation), such as high levels of anemia being present in babies.

The closest UN peacekeepers are currently in Lebanon (UNIFIL) and their is little to no likelihood of any force being created for Palestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_allowed/banned_for_import_into_Gaza

Israel has never published a list of allowed items, saying it approves requests on a case-by-case basis. A list of items which Israel allowed for Import has been compiled by the BBC from confidential information from international groups including Israeli Human Rights Organisation Gisha. The list refers to goods brought in by commercial importers. Humanitarian organisations, including UN agencies, also bring goods into Gaza. Humanitarian organisations have been allowed to bring in staple foods and medicines, while other items are approved or rejected on a case-by-case basis.

 

That's part of the problem, Deckard. Israel has no Constitution! They have a Declaration of Independence, which is not binding. Like many things here, politicians try to keep things as ambiguous as possible so as to make the law suit a given situation & hide behind a lot of weaselly legal arguments.

I do like that that minority parties are important and can get elected in to important roles, and even cabinet seats. My problem is that the minority parties that generally serve as kingmakers are the ultra-orthodox. They will go to the highest bidder - whichever party offers them the most taxpayer loot, and will impose some very undemocratic conditions in order to go along. Nowadays you also get fascists like Lieberman, who is a secular Kahane, as far as I am concerned.

The right will block any attempt to write a Constitution, because it would force all the politicians to take a stand on where the borders are, guaranteeing universal rights to everyone, tax law and other things that most legislators try to be as ambiguous as possible about so that no tough decisions have to be made and no one has to actually be on record for anything and continue to use weasel language to stay in office and continue the Occupation.

The Supreme Court almost always rules in favor of human rights rather than political or religious dogma, but Prime Ministers and Knessets past will simply ignore decisions if they don't like them. Rule of Law is a foreign idea, and though the Knesset can pass any law they feel like on a whim, most of the population delights in ignoring the law in general.

Exceptions are made all the time, and if you are rich enough or connected enough you can pretty much do whatever the hell you like. On the other side, you can do everything by the book and still be denied the job/degree/army promotion/whatever. Absolutely nothing is possible in Israel without friends (and maybe a gift or two) other than minimum wage jobs.

It's not hyperbole to suggest that my ancestors in early 20th century Italy probably lived under less corruption.

It IS a democracy, and the elections aren't rigged, but in a situation where there is no clear majority of opinion, everyone in the political spectrum deep down wants their strong man to have their way, and any other outcome is generally a stalemate that whittles down the treasury to pay off the interests of the minority parties (at least the ultra-orthodox and Liberman) that hurt the democratic culture of the state anyway.

The two most successful PM's, Ben-Gurion and Begin, were successful precisely BECAUSE they were unabashedly undemocratic and ruled with iron fists. In Israel's fragile 6 decades of existence, that's generally the only way significant change has been felt.

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3111238,00.html

Just two examples of quotes by Hamas and Hezbollah leaders. Many more for instance at the link below.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf25.html

Now let's look at the support for Hamas and Hezbollah among regular muslims in the region from a relatively recent Pew study.



http://pewglobal.org/2010/02/04/mixed-views-of-hamas-and-hezbollah-in-largely-muslim-nations/

I would say that, deducing from the above, support among muslims for "wiping Israel off the map" is pretty widespread, unfortunately.

I cannot blame Israel for wanting to do everything to defend itself from this threat.

 

I will take Israel's government over that of any of the muslim countries in the region any day of the week. Are they perfect? No. Are they by far more democratic than the muslim countries in the region? Yes.

 

And I will take Lebanon's gov't over Israel any day of the week? Are they perfect? No. Are they by far more democratic than Israel? Yes.

 

Lebanon is a relatively positive example. The biggest threat to them is Syria/Hezbollah.

 

As you note we have an embargo and not a blockade on Cuba. A blockade, which Israel has over Gaza, is an act of war.

We are not in a state of true peace with Cuba but its not comparable in regard to Israel and Gaza.

 

I'm posting from a terrace in Tel Aviv. Its a pretty awesome place.

That said, the Israeli political situation exposes some of the biggest flaws of a parliamentary system of government.

 

When are ATW and StupidMoniker going to realize that Israel intentionally allows Hamas to exist specifically in its current state? The existence of a Hamas-controlled territory is integral to the Israeli government's modus operandi. How will they convince the people? How will they justify settler actions? How will AIPAC come up with talking points?

To think that Israel is not capable of wiping Hamas off the face of the earth is hilarious. They are a small group of people, with limited technology, operating out of a box, who can not import/export anything unless Israel wanted them to.

As long as Hamas is hammered down and weakened once in a while, they will serve their purpose.

On a side note, when is StupidMoniker going to justify the alleged banning of coriander import into Gaza. I would like to know how that fits in with the security of the state of Israel. FYI, arbitrary banishment of such goods is a clear indication of malice and intentional lack of transparency.

When is the state of Israel going to take responsibility for anything? Settlers? The fact that they are an independent, sovereign state and Palestine is not? The fact that they are banning food from reaching civilians and taking all the clean water? Are we going to have ETERNALLY Israel's mentality of: if it's good it's good, if it's bad then they're only saying it because they want to wipe us off the face of the earth.

I'm completely against a two-state solution. History has shown that displacing a population creates horriffic reactions. The Chagossians are a great example of this.

If these people can't co-exist in one state, then none of them will ever be secure in their own individual neighbouring states.

 

Things are really that bad? I find that hard to believe. That Israel doesn't have a constitution and no real governing law, except for their declaration of independence (going by your post) is something I have either forgotten, or didn't realize. How does the government function without an overriding set of national laws? Unlike the US, with 50 states that have their own laws not supplanted by Federal law, Israel is tiny. One would think that governing law would be fairly easy to have covering an entire country that is, pardon a Texan, the size of a postage stamp.

I'll have to delve into this further on my own. It seems too bizarre. Thanks for the response.

 

huh? i saw arabic at the top of one of those sites and it was translated for you... it says information about the middle east and above that is just uruknet in arabic followed by info...everything else is in english

 

I am curious how would Israel wipe Hamas off the face of the earth without killing a whole lot of Gazans in the process?

 

Great question.

 

They would use their magical powers to force Hamas not to hide amongst the civilian populace of course. Bibi would just issue a challenge to Hamas to gather together, put on uniforms, and face the IDF on the field of battle in open combat, and because of the aforementioned magic powers, Hamas would have to comply. It is only because Israel loves Hamas so much that they haven't done that.

COGAT says there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza