Israeli documents show a deliberate policy of keeping Gazans hungry

Israel maintains controls over a border with a region controlled by a terrorist organization. They are going to keep track of what goes in and out. It is common sense. There is no evidence of any sort of deprivation in the document provided. The one commodity they give any numbers for is diesel for the power plant which shows a 33% surplus. The commentary in the original link specifically talked about the restriction on fuel for the power plant, which makes me think they didn't bother reading the document, they just looked for passages that sound bad without context. There is nothing inhumane about a country monitoring the supplies being delivered to terrorists (in case you were unaware, Hamas - the government of the Gaza strip - is a terrorist organization) or even setting reasonable limits. Is there any evidence that they are not letting enough through? The commentary linked to made accusations such as this being evidence of violating the Geneva conventions. Are those accusations baseless? This entire thread is based off of a biased commentary on a document that it doesn't seem that any of the people agreeing with the commentary have read. Israel is by no means perfect, but this document is proof of nothing. It certainly does not do what the thread title says.

 

It's called collective punishment.

Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

So why is the average Palestinian being punished for something they never did?

Collective measures that do not distinguish between civilian and military having always been illegal according to international law.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN18343083

 

It seems to have helped a bit to cut down on terrorist attacks within Israel.

 

Yes and that's what's important. Consequences be darned.

 

You stated previously that you used to care less about non-Muslim lives. Are you sure that has indeed changed?

 

I'll tell you. But first, you have to promise to tell me what my horoscope says for today.

 

It says "Do not try to be funny today, you are not very good at it."

 

Israel sucks

 

This is not collective punishment. According to your assessment, every trade embargo ever, including the one still maintained by the United States against Cuba, is against the Geneva conventions because it collectively deprives a people of receiving something, even those who have done nothing wrong. There is no convention against controlling the border or limiting the amount of supplies that get through if such limitation does not amount to deprivation.

I will ask again, can anyone point to a single instance in these documents which proves the assertion made in the thread title or any of the subsequent posts that these documents show a deliberate policy of keeping Gazans hungry or that the controls described amount to a violation of the Geneva conventions.

 

What percentage of muslims worldwide would like to see Israel wiped off the map and will buy into any anti-Israel propaganda? Are there any surveys about this?

 

Not really. Most terrorist bombings were people crossing over from the West Bank into Israel and then doing some sort of suicide attack. The wall they built basically stopped that problem, but Gaza was really only responsible for homemade rockets that hit nearby areas. Israel's evacuation of settlements in Gaza stopped that too.

There arent many places near Gaza on the Israel side. In fact there arent even any roads that come close to Gaza anymore, its basically a dead area so there's nothing to attack there either.

Also no one is suggesting for Israel not to provide restrictions on materials that might be turned into bombs but explain how limiting food aid and humanitarian assistance stops attacks on Israel.

 

Yes, Israel's actions really helps because punishing a bunch of miserable Palestians really makes 1.2 billion people happy.

There's no way things get better so long as stuff like this happens. You can choose a pathway of escalation or a pathway for peace.

I think it's obvious that Israel is more than happy to escalate. That doesn't mean the other side is not at any fault, but which nation is suppose to be the "civilized" one.

These sorts of deeds only serves to put israel on equal moral standing as the very people they are condemning.

 

Here's the pivotal reason your analogy is fallacious in reasoning: The United States is not currently occupying Cuba. The article in question is part of the Fourth Geneva Convention (Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War). Is the United States and Cuba currently in a state of war with Cuba?

Furthermore, almost every credible independent NGO has commentated that the blockade is a form of collective punishment (Amnesty International, International Committee of the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, Oxfam).

The purpose of the blockade is to stop Hamas from receiving materials needed to build weapons that can be used against Israel. The blockade itself is a collective measure that does not distinguish between civilian and military.

Finally, there are guidelines for a blockade, such as a complete list of what can and cannot enter a blockade. Israel has never released an official list. Another thing is excessive damage to the civilian population:

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea
Article 102
The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or (b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

 

Hydhypedplaya is like a wannabe lawyer.

 

I think we might technically be in a state of war with Cuba. Regardless, Israel is not in a state of war with Gaza.

Links?

The blockade does not seem to exist to starve the population or deny it other objects essential for survival. There does not appear to be any damage to the civilian population as a result of the blockade, let alone excessive damage. In fact, the documents show that there was a system in place to prevent shortages by monitoring consumption and ensuring sufficient supplies are allowed into Gaza to maintain a stockpile beyond what is needed. There is also a list of those products which are allowed into the Gaza strip, on pp. 20-22. That is why I have asked repeatedly for evidence from the linked document proving that Israel is "keeping Gazans hungry" or maintaining them only at starvation levels, or ensuring the malnourishment of children. All are claims made in the linked commentary on the documents, but there is no evidence of such in the documents themselves that I could find. Maybe I am not reading it closely enough. Why don't you just go through and give me a quote with a page and paragraph number so I can see it. If, as the thread title indicates, "Israeli documents show a deliberate policy of keeping Gazans hungry," shouldn't it be easy to go through these 22 pages and point out where they show this?

 

So this is you reacting to that? Giving others a taste of their own medicine (attacking the messenger), so to speak?

 

Its understandable to limit materials that could be used to make bombs and weapons. But food? That makes no sense at all and THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR IT. IMO, it is not civilized but barbaric...

 

I guess you could say that, in a way.

 

I'm sick and tired of hearing the sensationalist phrase "...Israel wiped off the map."

I think most people (not just Muslims) would like to see a two-state solution.

 

No, we are not in a state of war with Cuba.

Israel may or may not be in a state of war with Gaza (depending on who you ask), but they most certainly are occupying Gaza.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/021/2008/en
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/update/palestine-update-140610.htm
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/02/18/israelegypt-choking-gaza-harms-civilians
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/application...7/02/gaza-frontline-of-collective-punishment/

There does not appear to be any damage to the civilian population? Are you kidding me?

- 70 to 80 percent of the entire population is living below the poverty line (this figure was a third of that prior to the blockade)
- 61 percent are food insecure and reliant on humanitarian aid
- of that percentage, 65 percent on children under the age of 18
- ~90 percent of Gaza's manufacturing industry has closed
- 80 percent of the water supplied in Gaza does not meet the World Health Organization standard
- about 50 million liters of sewage flows into the sea daily, adding on to the crippling fishing industry (of where 90% of the 4,000 fishermen make less than $100-$150 A MONTH).
- before the blockade, 3,900 industrial premises were operating, employing 35,000 people - by June 2008, only 90 were still functioning, employing only 860

Beyond what is needed? It has now become evident you are ignorant of the situation in Gaza.

That is a list compiled by an NGO. There is no official Israel list that shows what is/is not allowed into the Strip (as required by international law).