Israeli air attack kills 54 civilians, including 19 children

I am not at all in favor of Israel's course of action, and I believe their actions are on scale with terrorism.

As for grey zones or even if there were 100% contrary opinions it wouldn't bother me. You explained your rationale, and I don't hold disagreement on political positions or anything close to that against a person. I have no problem with agreement, disagreement, or anywhere any between.

 

You did make those remarks when you said that Jews were aggressors etc. You were speaking of Israel but said Jews without putting any qualifiers on the term at all.

I gave you the out that you might have been using the wrong word when you really meant Israel, but never-the-less it needed to be addressed.

 

Really? And what about the lost income to Americans and American companies because millions of people worldwide have boycotted US goods and services.

What about the OPEC Oil Embargo in the 1970's?? Do you think that hurt our economy in any way??

And thats a FANTASTIC point by the way. You're justifying it by saying that we give them money that they use to buy from us !?!?!

Wow. Some guys wanted to fight you and used a bad name??!?! What ever did you do. The ENTIRE World owes you an apology and I think all the Clutchfans should put together a card for you. If thats your 'discrimination' then you've lived a pretty horrible and oppressed life.

I respect very much the Jewish culture, and as someone in finance, many of our biggest breakthroughs have been by Jews. I actually work with a great deal of jews. I don't believe in some affirmative action for those above or below the average, I believe in hard word, which is something that permeates through jewish culture.

The world, however, doesn't owe you or the jews anything based on some historical persecution. Jews that I work with that are very successful don't feel the world owes them anything and instead work harder and smarter than others to be successful. That is what you should do.

 

Cry me a f*cking river. A couple of guys wanted to fight you in a bar because of your ethnicity? Join the f*cking club.

Just because Jews have been discriminated against does not give Israel the right to commit the heinous crimes against humanity which it has carried out and it is utterly disgusting that you seem to feel this way.

 

Modern day Palestine belongs to the Caananites who live there today aka the Palestinians.

 

Franchise2001,

Sorry to hear about that, man. Racism is a fact of life, and I am sorry you had to go through it.

I am dismayed at the 'tone' of some of the posters here, I hope everyone can stay away from making broad generalizations that attempt to indict an entire group of people based on their ethnic/racial background. We have enough hate in this world as it is...

 

I'm sorry you experienced anti-semitic hate. Racism and discrimination blows. After 9/11 (on 9/11 specifically) I was at school and recieved multiple threats while walking to class. I also was walking with a Sikh (who recieved labels such as towel-headed terrorist SOB, f-ing Arab motherfu*ker etc..) Another Brown (not even arab) kid got pelted with basketballs on his way to class that week. After 9/11, I got the "special" search at the airport 7 count em 7 straight times.

And yet I consider myself incredibly priveleged to have everything I could ever want. And I don't think I've really experienced "racism" in the most serious sense. Even if people have acted like jackasses because of my race, it never has inhibited what I want to do or how I want to live my life here. I've got a great family, wealth, friends etc.. I'm sorry for what you experienced but to claim that you have a true understanding of racism in my opinion is misguided. I bet I can count on one hand the number of people on this forum that have truly had a hard life in which their ambitions were squelched because of racism.

And more importantly, even if Jews still face discrimination, it is largely less than say other minority groups which still experience terrible hatred. And even if jews have historically faced hardship, that doesn't justify their actions now. Hell your logic justifies reperations for African Americans from slavery and Native Americans from colonialism. Indians and Pakistanis deserve reperations from the British, as do Africans for having their lands trashed by colonizers. The same goes for other parts of Asia, the same goes for Aborigines in Australia and New Zealand etc..

If you want to defend Israel, do so but don't use past historical injustices as a justification for what I consider Israel's unjust policy in Lebanon. Debate it on the merits of the policy itself and defend the consequences and actions of Israel rather than relying on a fact that by and large is irrelevant to the current debate.

 

I graduated Magna c*m Laude with a degree in Finance and landed a nice job thank you.

Tiger and gee, thank you for your comments. I've always been taught to not judge and put everyone on equal standing. That only changes until they open their mouths and spew ignorant crap.

F.D. Khan and thacabbage, it wasn't just what they said... it was the hate I saw in their eyes. They truly meant what they said.

You're right Khan.. the world doesn't owe us anything. We will fight (or as cabbagepatchmoron says "commit crimes") for our existance. After the fight is over, we will help rebuild Lebanon, establish Palestine, and create an open market where there are no bounderies. This cannot happen while Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad call for the destruction of Israel.

 

Nobody is putting a gun to the U.S. government and saying "give Israel aid... or else!!" The alliance that Israel and the US have has developed over many years and both sides have done great things for one another. As far as talking about reperations and whatnot, thats a different debate.

 

So your saying Palestine belongs to the Palestinians?

 

When I applauded krnxsnoopy's post, I was referring to his remarks on the effect of the Israel actions, the devictimization of the victim image of Jews.

Let's be honest here, since the Jews were the victims of the Holocaust, people and the international community have been generous in giving them the benifit of doubt and is prone to lend sympathy in conflicts. Free from scrutiny, easy to grant trust. I liked Israel partly because of it. Israel being a country of the Jews has also been a beneficiary of such sentiments. On the other hand, Israel is the symbol of Jewish belief and sovereignty, like it or not, the Israel actions changes people's perception towards Jews, like what is happening now. The fall from the golden boy status to average mortals for the Jews is the sole product of Israel aggression. It's not racism, not stereotypes, but a fact. The Jews will be judged like average Iranians, Iraqis, Lebonese, Japanese... from here on...there's no longer the cloak of victim on the Jews in the eyes of sober people.

So Jews should know that seperating the race of Jews from Israel when Israel has done something wrong is not consistent with letting Israel getting favorable calls because of insurmountable connections with the Jews. If anyone thinks Israel should be subject to preferential treatment because of the connection to the victimized Jews, one must also admit the Jews should be tied to Israel behavior. It works both ways. The key word is consistency.

If one feels Israeli actions are justified because of the past suffering of Jews, then don't cry about racism or stereotypes when poeple lump Israel and Jews together in unfavorable situation.

Derailing this thread was an unintentional turn, but I think it has exposed some interesting thoughts that reflect the relationship between Israel and the Jews.

 

I know everyone is referring to Israel as the 'Jewish state', but a good fifth or more of Israel are the so-called 'Israeli Arabs'

 

Do the "Israeli Arabs" have the same rights as Israeli Jews? From what I've read lately, the answer is no.

 

No, but I am merely pointing out the ethnic makeup of Israel...

 

I would have been civil with you, but you've done nothing on this forum but play the victim card, and dish out accusations of anti-Semitism with the safeguard of what you deem an action which makes you a victim.

I stick by my words. Cry me a f*cking river and get over it. I never denied that Anti-Semitism doesn't exist. Your apparent assertion through your anecdotal experience that the Jewish people are still the biggest victim of worldwide opression is the most absurd leap I've ever seen and your justification of Israel's crimes because of it is even more pathetic. It's sad that you have to turn this into an issue about "Jews" when except for one poster, I haven't seen anyone on this board criticize anyone other than the state of Israel. You are the one who has turned this into a race issue, when it did not exist, and you are the one playing the victim card.

Get over it. Every racial group faces discrimination but that does not justify them in their crimes. The Muslims of the inner city ghettos of France were not justified in their rioting, and the blacks of Watts were not justified in their race rioting. And they were the victims of 200 years of institutionalized slavery.

Past grievances do not give one carte blance to oppress other people. It is utterly disgusting that you feel this way.

 

Who will help rebuild it? Israel or the U.S.? Israel definitely won't. They didn't do it when they had the opportunity during the Oslo accords prior to Hamas rise to power in the recent elections. In fact that was when the nations in the region were willing to recognize ISrael's right to exist. But the deal wasn't a good one, and Israel wasn't living up to its end of the bargain in dismantling settlements. In fact while they were supposed to be getting rid of settlements they were actually building more.

Israel has never shown a real willingness to have a viable Palestinian state as a neighbor. Israel is fighting for the lives of its citizens when they fight Hamas. But they aren't doing so out of any grand notions to do what is right for the Palestinian people or the Lebanese people, or anybody else.

 

You are correct they don't. They do have more than the Palestinians in the occupied territories though. So it is a tiered system where rights depend on what nationality you happen to be.

 

Fine. Israel is justified in invading a sovereignty while killing innocent Arabs for a better tomorrow of the Middle East. People died, families shattered, properties lost, millions of people suffered, yeah all that can be justified through some promise of economical compensation in the future. Where's the value of non-Israel lives in such thinking? If this kind of thinking is prevalent in Israel, I find it quite troublesome in terms of militarism. When Japan invaded and brutalized China and the Southwest Asia, they had the same excuse - for the survival of the natural resources deprived Japanese and the establishment of the great "co-prosperity sphere of the East".

To solve the problems Israel must make allies with the Arab governments despite the past grievances. Fighting together is the only way. So far Israel is only interested in making the US as its ally. Trying to fight terrorists by fighting against the Arab countries under some empty and meaningless promise makes matters worse. The Israel fight against Lebanon right now is not justified because they are not just fighting the terrorists, but also the Arabs.

War generates hate among civilians, hate fuels terrorism because terrorism is poor civilian's way of revenge. It's an endless downward spiral...

 

According to whom?

 

Not always. We nuked Japan twice and they are now allies with us. Germany was leveled in World War II and they are now allies with many of the countries that attacked them. The difference here is that there is a religious and cultural hatred of Jews. The sad truth is that this hatred cannot be changed by the US, Israel, or the UN. Diplomacy has been tried and so has war. Neither has worked.