Israeli air attack kills 54 civilians, including 19 children

sarcastic or not, it sure isn't the first time "terrorist" is called upon someone on this board. That's the interesting part.

 

So do Americans, British, French, Austrailians... pretty much every country involved in WWII felt jutified killing innocent people. Collateral damage is an aknowledged fact as a consequence of war. The Nazis killed innocent people on purpose, with the explicit intent of wiping out the entire race of people of which those innocents were a part. In that, the Nazis have much more in common with Hizballah, Hamas, and the government of Iran than with Israel.

 

The US didn't kill civilians by 'mistake' in WWII, they targeted civilians as a means to an end, which was forcing the enemy to surrender. Those civilians killed were not 'collateral damage', as you put it. Nice spin though...

You have managed to outdo yourself this time. Iran has 'more in common' to the Nazis? Wow! Just wow!

As for Hamas and Hizbollah, they can't be compared to the Nazis, either. You want to make a sound comparison, use the IRA, the Tamil Tigers, or some other subnational organization/movement that uses terrorism to further its goals. The Nazis perpetuated mass genocide and were intent on world domination, and wanted a 'pure' race. Again, a very, very poor comparison.

I hope Daniel Pipes wasn't your history professor...

 

1. The colateral damage statement was wrt Israel, not the countries I listed. The Allies in WWII "felt justified killing innocent people" was the other point. Using that to draw a comparison to Nazis is like using my dark hair to draw a comparison to Hitler; it is meaningless and is creating a negative association that is unwarranted.
2. The president of Iran expressed his intent to kill all of the Israelis. The leader of Hizballah wants to kill all of the Jews. Those seem much closer to the Nazis than the IDF does to me.

You can continue to support the comparison that krnxsnoopy and Panda made of Israel to the Nazis if you like, but it's limited accuracy and non-exclusive nature makes it a terrible one in my view.

 

I can understand Israelis sensativity about Hamas and Hezbelloh - I mean, these guys want to wipe them off the map.

But for the U.S. to stand aside and allow Israel to wage a war with complete disregard for human life....hundreds of civilian deaths and nearly a million people turned to refugees over a few kidnapped soldiers - is simply unbelievable.

And America is allowing Israel a free hand to keep going.

And Americans wonder why "they" hate us?????????

Are we sowing the seeds for the next big terrorist attack? Do we need the first Iranian bomb to be tested on American soil? Israel is over-reacting. It's too much. They are justifying everything the Muslim world complains about. I don't think this war will lead to anything but more grief for every party involve. This is the greatest foolery of all the foolish things Bush has allowed. What a tragdegy - what blindness. What a horrid day for the world.

 

Either you're not very bright, or you're trying to get under my skin. I didn't equate Israel with the Nazis. Unlike certain people, I don't throw around the Nazi label and hope it might stick, I am not the one who is saying Iran is comparable to Nazi Germany.

Here's my conclusion: you're either delusional or dishonest.

 

Not really interesting, in my opinion, but slanderous, and far over that "line" Sir Jackie Chiles likes to conjure up. The one he applies very selectively.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

Now you are being REALLY funny!...

 

I would argue that they are not showing complete disregard for human life...

 

Actually, that comparison is VERY valid...(governmentally) ...knaa

 

I doubt Iran will attack us first if we don't "intervene" them. What's more likely to happen is the direct military conflict between Iran and Israel. The Zionist-Neocon cabal, which is well represented in both major political parties, will then try everything at their disposal, legal or otherwise, to suck us in.

 

The way things stand today, they would have to get our permission to fly over Iraq in order to carry out any attack, and most likely the use of one or more bases inside Iraq, to boot. No way Turkey or SA allow overflights. I'm assuming they would ignore any Jordanian protests about overflights. If you look at a map, wnes, an Israeli attack on Iran, without basing in Iraq, would be very problematic. They could launch an air assault, but in my opinion, the distance involved would limit their capabilities.

I don't see how they could do the kind of sustained assault on Iran's scattered and "hidden" atomic facilities without active US support, from AWACS coverage, to Iraqi bases, to air-refueling... inviting Iranian attacks on US/Iraqi targets in retaliation, justifiable retaliation, whether you like the current Iraian government or not. Also, how does Israel do anything to seriously degrade Iran's ability to resupply Hezbollah, inside Iran? It's hard to see how they make an attempt that has a chance of success.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

I just looked up some info. The F-15i, which is the best Israeli fighter/bomber and would be used for strikes, has a range of 4450 km. The farthest target in Iran is about 2500 km, and most of the populated areas are no more than 1500 km away. These planes were bought and modified by Israel specifically for the threat of bombing Iran.

These planes were sold without the top notch avionics and countermeasures on the U.S. versions of the planes, but they were heavily modified by Israeli defense industries. I used to own some stock in an Israeli avionics company, and those people know what they are doing. Many of them sell systems to the US Defense Department for other purposes or as subcontractors for McDonnell Douglass and Bowing. In the final analysis these planes are probably equal to the best the USAF has, short of the stealth bombers.

I would be amazed if the US had complete radar coverage over all of Iraq, and most of it probably faces Syria and Iran. I would wager that Israel could find a way to sneak through most of the coverage, bomb Iranian targets, and return if they really wanted to.

Whether they are willing to take the hit to the relationship with the U.S. which would ensue would be the more important question.

 

Interesting info, Ottomaton, although I still think it would be a real challenge for them. I don't think they would have to sneak through Iraq, although I suppose the US could claim they couldn't spot them, for about 20 minutes, before people started yelling and screaming about it. Bush would give them a private green light, IMO.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

I don't support all of what Israel is presently doing to Lebanon, but do you think you overstated a bit? 'Complete diregard for human life'? Have you seen the scale of the destruction? Have you heard of the warnings (given that whether some Lebanese had the opportunity or ability to leave is debatable)? Its obvious there would be many many more civilian deaths if there was a 'complete disregard for human life' by the Israelis. Even if they happened to possess such a disregard for life, as with the US bombing of Iraq they must be well aware of the impact of dead civilians on world opinion.

If you want to see a 'complete disregard for human life', you need only look at hezbollah. Where are their rockets aimed?

 

It is just as silly to argue that Hezbollah has "complete disregard of human life" as it is to argue Israel does.

 

I disagree.

 

That's interesting because I saw a documentary on the Israeli strike on Iraq in '81 and they barely had enough fuel to get to Iraq and back. To get maximum range you have to fly at high altitude which even assuming they could make it to Iran and back they could not do without detection.

Also, I seriously doubt the Israelis could overfly Iraq without the US knowing it. Aside from satellite coverage there are AWACs covering the area.

 

Iran Has The F-14 tomcat which can detect and lock and load the enemy from over 200 miles away. plus iran has bought the TOR-300 from russia. if the isrealie think there just gonna in there bomb iran's nuclear facilities into smitherines, there in for a rude shock.

Our nuclear facilities are spreadout all over iran, you knock one out, there is still so many more.

 

Isreal would need to get the Turks and the jordinians to allow them to use there airspace for refulling. i highly doubt the turks or the jordians would allow that.