http://en.netanyahu.org.il/Themes-of/security/ I'm a bit skeptical about your claim that the Holocaust is commonly used as a tool to scare jews. Went ahead and posted Netanyahu's national security platform and the only mention of the Holocaust has to do with Ahmedinijad being a holocaust denier and wanting to wipe Israel off the map. Also, please do not confuse me with somebody that agrees with all of his policies. I know this is another topic in itself... Iran is an entirely different can of worms. The reason why I'm skeptical is that Jews are naturally scared and affected by genocidal threats (and we have multiple holidays commemorating our ability to survive with the odds stacked). Israelis may bring it up when justifying certain military responses, but it is not the only reason for justification. Why should Israelis not defend themselves from suicide bombers or incoming missiles? Why shouldn't Palestinians turn to terrorism when they can't win a conventional war? We let a few hundred acres of land be the reason behind the deaths of thousands and we let millions live in extreme poverty or extreme fear for the same reason. The ugly truth is that Israel disrespects international law. The uglier truth is the reason why it chooses to do so. I hope a toddler gets a new pair of shoes today for the first time, my nephew is lucky to have many pairs.
Finkelstein was brought up earlier in the thread. He wrote a book (which I have not read) called The Holocaust Industry which details how he thinks the pro-Isreali lobby has exploited the Holocaust for political support.
I watched the video... the guy is passionate. With that being said, there are a lot of people that are going to buy that book and for the most part, they aren't going to be jewish. He's going to be a rich man thanks to his arab readers. Like I said in the previous post, jews don't need to pull the "Holocaust Card" to be scared. With the amount of misinformation (blood libel), hate groups, terrorist groups, political enemies and hate that is spread (I have seen some Palestinian children's programming that is just heartbreaking to endure it is so hateful and shameful), there are plenty of reasons for jews to be naturally ultra-defensive. And with all this said, it doesn't justify denying people human rights. I am curious to what solutions Finkelstein provides to stopping the violence on both sides.
This book was written a number of years ago, and I don't think he is a rich man. He said in an interview a while ago that he did the book through a small publishing company, and he received a $5000 advance for it. I don't know what sort of percentages these authors get from book sales.
Not sure what sort of percentage he's getting from it, but it was a best seller throughout Europe (printed in 13 languages) but kinda flopped in the U.S. (no link but a quick google search will show that it was very successful). There are some sites reporting him getting receiving $5,000 just to speak with all expenses paid. After doing a bit more research on Finkelstein, it's hard for me to take him seriously. But hey, if you wanna think that he represents >1% of Jews, you're definitely fooling yourself. From his wikipedia pagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein : "On May 23, 2008, Finkelstein was denied entry to Israel because, according to unnamed Israeli security officials, of suspicions that "he had contact with elements 'hostile' to Israel" including "a top Hezbollah commander in Lebanon."[60] Finkelstein was questioned after his arrival at Ben Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv and placed on a flight back to Amsterdam, his point of origin. According to the Jerusalem Post, officials said that the decision to deport Finkelstein was connected to his "anti-Zionist" opinions and criticism of the Israeli government. His lawyer said that he was told by officials that the decision to deport Finkelstein was based on security reasons.[61] He was banned from entering Israel for 10 years.[60] A few months later, Finkelstein indeed visited southern Lebanon and conducted meetings with Hezbollah officials[62]. He said: After the horror and after the shame and after the anger, there still remains the hope. And I know I can get in a lot of trouble for what I’m about to say, but I think that Hizbullah represents the hope. They are fighting to defend their homeland, they are fighting to defend the independence of their country, they are defending themselves against foreign marauders, vandals and murderers and I consider it to be genuinely to be an honor to be in their presence." How can we respect anything this guy has to say? All you need to know about his buddies Hezbollah... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7943357.stm
Norman Finkestein telling about how almost all of his family died in Nazi concentration camps and yet he does not appreciate those who use their martyrdom to justify prsent day injustice to Palestinians. Very emotional. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNQSV3BBtZ4
There is no more to discuss here. He does absolutely no good at all. He complains about the Holocaust Industry using propaganda to make money... but he's just using his own propaganda to do the same thing. He's an insulting hypocrite IMHO. Like I said, I'm just going to spend my energy on something more positive than arguing about Israel/Palestine on a message board. Peace.
Dr Finkelstein is one heck of a man. To lose half your family in the holocaust and speak out against Israel's transgressions takes a hell of a lot of moral character. There aren't many people in this world who would take such a remote position and still be vocal about it for over two decades. I knew he was good, but man, he is a testament to there still being good and true values in this world. I really liked the part where he ended it with saying,"My parents taught me well enough to not use these atrocities as an excuse". It was truly inspiring.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TCKTKMFTprM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TCKTKMFTprM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> lol i was just watching it. I'm speechless.
This is my last post in this thread, and I took the time to watch this video, just to see why you are so impressed and speechless. You have to understand that this man is wrong on so many different levels. He spreads hate. He hates Israel. I don't know his reasons for hating Israel, but he just does. Please read my posts from earlier... I am not a hardliner, and I think some Israeli policy is detrimental to my own people. But I believe Israel has the right to exist... something this man definitely does not. If you truly believe this man is great, there is no hope for you. He might be passionate and stand up for what he believes. He might actually have a little bit of substance. But he is so out there, completely detached from reality. He says what he says to make money. HE IS THE ONE PLAYING THE HOLOCAUST CARD with the story of his parents. Sure, he embarrassed some immature college girl on a youtube video, but he is a condescending, arrogant, hypocritical turd of a human being. You may all dance around my corpse that lay in this thread now.
I don't really know what percentage of Jews he represents, and I don't see why it is relevant. As for his personal finances, I don't believe him to be a rich man and I would be somewhat surprised if your research turned up something different. He has dedicated most of his life to this issue, and I do not begrudge any person for earning income off of their life's work. Also, I do think there is a difference between making money while trying to help present-day victims, versus making money while memorializing past victims. As I understand it, he considers Israel to be a flagrant aggressor against Lebanon, and he supports Hezbollah's right to fight back in defense. Who else is going to defend Lebanon ... the US? As for Hezbollah's position on not recognizing Israel's right to exist -- that phrase "right to exist" carries a lot of political baggage. Does any state have a "right to exist"? Does the US have a right to exist on land stolen away from a mostly wiped out indigenous population? I don't believe so, but what's done is done. States don't have rights in a moral sense, or in the "we hold these rights to be self-evident" sense. Agreements can be made between states under international law or bilateral treaties, and in that way a state's borders will be respected. But making it a precondition for another body to recognize "your right to exist as a state" before negotiating a settlement seems to me to be putting the cart ahead of the horse. Anyway, I see you left this thread and so you probably didn't read this or wish to respond. That's fine ... agree to disagree.
Dershowitz was instrumental in denying Finkelstein a tenure at Depaul because he did not like what he said about Israel. If anything, Finkelstein's freedom of speech stance cost him his job and income. You may not like it but Finkelstein makes some very good points.
I'm speechless about how Mr Israel wouldn't answer the damned question, or any question for that matter until half way through the video.... You don't think there is anything wrong with that? Proceeds to ask question... The guy answers, I don't like the way you talk to me, "You are mean." Come on dude, you can't be that biased. And there is a reason why he doesn't like Israel, because of their treatment to palestenians. I don't have to be a genius to tell you that Norman does what he does because of what he believes in. Go to his videos from the 80s. He has NUMEROUS vids on the matter. I don't understand why you think he hates himself, it is in fact the exact opposite, what makes him so great is that he acknowledges the faults within his own people and has been adament about it for so long. Like I said, I don't know why you think he is acting that way for no reason, if you watch his debating style he is a completely calm and collected person that will show his passion for what he believes in every once in a while and it impossible to think he is a fraud, not to mention he has been Disrespected NUMEROUS times in the media. You think its easy being the only one on an island and everyone being against you? Throughout history there have been many great individuals that were laughed and ridiculed by the general public but they continued to preach what they believed.
Durvasa with another excellent post, but to add to that here is an old video where Norman absolutely annihilates present day CNN news anchor Wolf Blitzer. Wolf is sitting on millions right now and has a nice job, do you think that would be the case if his beliefs with respect to Israel were like Norman's? The guy comes off as a complete arrogant blowhard, something I was very surprised to see btw. If anything he basically lost much potential because of his views, nobody wants a guy that fights for what he believes in.
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/U0KDAeQYNDg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/U0KDAeQYNDg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object> Damn it didn't post in the last comment. Here it is.
Well that is too bad. Here is a very interesting lecture by Finkelstein. Here you see his personality and humor and interesting lecture style. He may be a devotee of Chomsky but he is much more personable and a better lecturer imho.. In the lecture Finkelstein talks about how American Jewry is starting to distance itself from Israel due to its liberal values when Israel is currenlty overwhelmingly right wing. For example Israel strongly backs an elective war with Iran and a large majority of American Jews don't. He says there is a big exodus of liberal Jews, especially intellectuals from Israel. Right wing Israel is becoming an embarassment for Aemrican Jews who are overwhelmingly liberal and in favor of such American concepts as "equality under the law", and "separation of church and state" -- tenets of American society that have led US Jews to do quite well in this country. Finkelstein quite convingly cites auto-biographical books and statistics from the political publications of now prominent neo-cons prior to 1967 in which they seldom mentioned Israel at all and is obviously not a major part of being Jewish. Finkelstein envisions a return to the pre 1967 state in which most American Jews had little concern for Israel, it was not a main essence of being Jewish and Israel was mainly seen as a place to send charitable donations. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2587693067472444036&hl=en#
An addendum to the above after a couple of hrs of thinking about it off and on. I think Finkelstein is too extreme in his position that Israel's standing and or the interest of American Jews will go back to the realtive disinterest that it was before 1967. I think he is correct that as Israel continues in a spiral of conservatism that most American Jews will start seeing it as irrelevant and embarassing. His additional point is that Israel's tremendous success in the 1967 War and that the general unawareness of the now essentially historical accepted truth about the ethnic cleansing at Israel's birth etc led to a resolution of the "dual loyalty" issue. At that time support for Israel could be seen as very pro-American. Now he sees Israel's values and their perception as diverging from those of American Jews, who are Americans first. Now the issue of "dual loyalty" cuts the other way and American Jewry will distance themselves from the Israel that is more consonant with Bush, Cheny, fundamentalist Christiand and Mormons etc.
Finkelstein is an interesting character. I saw another very recent clip on "Democracy Now" in which he says he has been reading thousands of pages of Ghandi's writings and thinks civil disobedience might be the way, though he is not sure tha t the Palestinians can get justice from Israel. He does think that only a major defeat of some sort will cause the Jews in Israel to come to their senses and reevaluate their society.
ChiveousFTFace, as one who had the pleasure of meeting with Dr. Finkelstein when he came here to UT, I <del>urge</del> beseech you to come back, read durvasa's and True Beaner's posts (#51, #53 respectively), and respond. He is nowhere remotely close to the man who you describe as 'hateful and out there' and more. I brought 2 of my Jewish friends along, one who was very right-wing, and they both were astonished with his seminar, and meeting him in person. Although you may believe in Israel's "right to exist" and I don't (see Durvasa), I think Dr. Finkelstein provides an extremely insightful and necessary perspective on the Israeli-Palestinian issue; too many Americans believe it's very black and white (the black being the Palestinian/Arab/Islamic side) and they disproportionately and blindly support the other side based on a terrible tragedy that's used by Israel to legitimize its policies.
Well if you talk to people from Israel they will tell you that there is no making peace with these people. The PLO, Hamas and their ilk prefer violence and chaos. They don't want the people to see that they can live any other way or they fear to lose power and control over them. In Gaza there was an entire section given to the Palestinians, houses, shops; a complete functional town and they destroyed it, literally leveled it to the ground to spite the standard of living and Israel and to keep the people from seeing this better way of living can work if they want. I find it funny how the reaction always gets blamed rather then the instigators.
