Israel launches air strike into Syria ... Holy Crap!

I am having a hard time understanding the points you are trying to make. You seem to nitpik my posts with a bunch of into that doesn't seem particularly relevant.

My point is that Israel surrounded by countries that currently (or as recent as a few decades ago) want to eliminate Israel. As you have pointed out, there are peace treaties but most would agree that Israel continues to be in a precarious position.

Help me out. What is your point?

 

My point is that Israel actually isn't in as precarious a position as you make it out to be nor is the US under much of a threat from those states. In fact the US is allied to those many of those states.

You claim that all these countries want to take out Israel when the truth is they don't since they are already in treaties with Israel. Now true treaties can be broken but there is little sign that any of those countries are moving towards breaking their treaties and in the case of Turkey are patching things up. Syria has bigger problems to deal with right now than attacking Israel. Hezbollah and Hamas can do a lot of damage to Israel but neither are an existential threat to the existence of Israel. Iran is still a way away from being an existential threat and the US will attack Iran if it tries anything against Israel or its other neighbors.

Now the US is under threat from non-state actors of people from those states like Al Qaeda but countries like Lebanon, Syria and Jordan are extremely unlikely to attack the US or even Israel again anytime soon.

You seem to be buying into the paranoia that Israel is under imminent destruction but that is anything but the case. It is under threat from missiles and terrorism but as the all of the Israel-Arab wars (and since then the military gap has only increased) have shown no single Arab country or even coalition of Arab countries can defeat Israel.

 

His point is that you're wrong. Glad I could help.

 

No, you are.

 

Well, you take an interesting position given that Israel had rockets hit Tel Aviv last fall for the first time in it's history.

Lebanon will not allow Israeli's cross their boarder.

Israeli's are not allowed to enter Palestine (but Arab's are allowed into Israel and many were even given citizenship).

Anyway, we won't solve this problem. There are obviously a zillion opinions about the matter that span centuries. So if your opinion is that Israel is a bully, I respect that and you certainly are not alone in that opinion. My opinion is that Israel is surrounded by countries that it is (or was) at war with many of whom state that the only resolution is the destruction of Israel.

I see your point and respectfully disagree. Without turning this into a DnD thread, that is my final statement on the matter. Cheers.

 

Yes that is true but hardly implies an existential threat to Israel's existence. As for the missiles yes I said Israel is under threat from missiles but given they weren't very affective and Israel has the most sophisticated anti-missile system in the world the threat is limited.

I am not sure which part of Palestine you are referring too as yes Israelis just on their own aren't allowed to enter Gaza but Israelis do enter and live in the West Bank. Palestinians in those regions have severe restrictions entering Israel proper.

Once again none of that means that is a threat to Israel's existence. As I said Israel does face threats none of those come to the level that you make it out to be that their position is precarious. Israel is stronger now than it ever has been.

I actually don't have a strong opinion regarding this instance. I don't know all the facts yet about what was bombed and the reasons behind it. The situation in Syria is complicated and if the Assad regime is losing control or giving away their deadliest weapons taking those weapons out might be better for the region. That is one reason why there hasn't been a huge outcry from the rest of the region regarding Israel's actions.

That said I just don't buy this view, which strikes me as paranoid, that we should just support everything Israel does because they are facing imminent destruction. The facts don't support that.

This thread is on its way to the D&D anyway.

 

So Israel took the opportunity with a destabilized Syria to blow up a bunch of Iranian weapons cached in Syria that were most likely on their way to Hezbollah to shoot at Israelis?

 

All I initially stated was a fact that Israel is or has been at war with every country on it's boarder. That is a fact.

The other fact I stated is many (not all) Arab organizations or administrations specifically have stated (past or present) that the only resolution is the destruction of Israel. I will agree with you that in some instances, SOME (but not all) entities have softened that position.

The only reason I brought that up was to inform some of the previous posters about why Israel sometimes appears to be a bully. Just because Israel currently has the upper hand doesn't mean that they now should let their guard down. Israel clearly thinks that to do so would be foolish.

I'm not presenting a paranoid opinion. I'm only providing the proper context as to why Israel is so aggressive militarily. They don't do it because they like to pick fights. They attacked Syria because they feel it's in their national security. ...and most American's don't appreciate how complicated it is.

I saw the abandoned barbed wire outside of a "spa" in the dead sea.
I saw the abandoned Syrian canon still aimed at Israel by Galilee.
I saw these things without even looking for them. I just noticed them while I was touring. It's not being paranoid ...it's reality.

...and that's why Israel struck Syria.

(Israeli's are not allowed in the city of Bethlehem, located in the West Bank. I was just there. My host, an Israeli, said he can't take me but I can go by myself. However, many Palestinian Arabs have Israeli citizenship and can travel freely. I saw them.)

 

You already made it into a D&D topic

Lol, cmon man. I agree with you in part that Israel should act in it's security interests to prevent Hezbollah from getting sophisticated missiles and so on but you are brainwashed. There are Jewish only settlements all over Palestine.

 

I am told that Israeli's are not allowed into Bethlahem in the West Bank. It is under rule of the Palestinian Authority. I misspoke when I suggested all of Palestine. There are several area's that are off limits, however. But the reverse is not true.

Another example, non-muslims are not allowed into several mosques in Jerusalem. But anybody is allowed in all other sacred areas in Jerusalem including the Christian and Jewish holy areas including Muslims.

I'm simply stating facts. I have opinions that we could debate but I'm trying not to go into that. Just stating facts and therefore I don't see a need for DnD. This has been a civilized discussion so far.

Again, my only point is that many Americans, including myself prior to last week, don't even understand some of the basic facts. I'm certainly no expert but I'd venture to guess most American's don't even know who the Palestinians are.

 

That's because the Muslim/Arab lobby in the USA has been doing a good job of demonizing Israel to non-educated, leftist Americans who don't even understand whom they are fraternizing with.

 

Yes, you're right. The big Muslim lobby is way too powerful in America especially when it comes to Israel/Palestine. Hopefully the feeble Jewish lobby gets its act together soon to counteract this.

 

I... you...
wait...
seriously?
This reads like something from The Onion. You're not being ironic? You actually believe this?

 

So true...

 

You are correct in that Israel is not facing an existential threat. But the reason isn't because Israel is surrounded by nice people who would get along just fine if only those darn Israelis would stop being so mean to everybody - it's because that while hatred of Israel is endemic in the region, most of the haters live in poorly-led, impoverished states and are thus unable to translate that sentiment into military-scale killing.

Anyways, it's beside the point. We don't support Israel because we fear their extinction, we support them because they're a flourishing democracy that shares many of our values. If it's reasonably practical for us to help countries like that remain so, then we should do it.

 

I laughed. :grin:

 

So agree. What an admirable country. A country that doesn't "hat" us or prays for our destruction. They are true survivors and learned the value of defense when multiple neighbors tried to destroy them...

 

I have an interesting perspective on this. At least I think it's interesting. I visited Jordan prior to the '67 war, when they controlled the West Bank and the Old City of Jerusalem. Understand that I was dealing with Jordan, not Israel. Yes, anyone can go to the holy places that aren't mosques. They could under Jordanian rules back then, and they can today. No one was allowed in the mosques who wasn't Muslim, back then under Jordanian control, and today. I went as a tourist to the Dead Sea and went swimming. Yes, you can just float there. It's a trip. There wasn't any barbed wire anywhere.

Kind of depends on the point in history and who's doing the interpretation of same, doesn't it? I looked across the border into Israel and it was much greener than Jordan, even then. One couldn't cross the border unless one flew into Israel from a non-Arab country. So that restriction, not surprising in the context of the times, existed then. I went to Bethlehem without the slightest problem while I was in Jordan, and although I'm not a Christian, I can tell you that the place where Christ was born simply radiated power. I don't know how to describe what I felt, but it was a trip. I didn't feel the same way at the various holy places I went to in Jerusalem that were open to anyone, just as Christ's birthplace was open to anyone. Anyone except an Israeli.

Thought I'd share that. Not judging, just sharing an experience.

 

I know. Just look at how unfriendly U.S. policy towards Israel is. It's all because of how much more influence the Muslim/Arab lobby has in comparison with the Israeli lobby.

 

Poor Israel

Surrounded by all these enemies! How do they even survive?

http://rt.com/news/israeil-iran-security-alliance-us-832/

Now for the more logical people, the US does not have state-level enemies in the ME except Iran, Syria and sometimes Lebanon. The people who are surrounded by enemies, justified or not, are those 3 countries. To be clear: those countries are led by terrible people. But to isolate the core issue: if this is about who is surrounded by enemies, the majority of the people in power in the wider Middle East are American friends.