Israel is doing the right thing by killing Hamas leaders

To begin with, I will answer your two questions.

1. What would happen if Israel won this war and got what it wanted?

They would then target other Arab nations and blame them for terrorist acts in their own country. Create as big a stir as possible, so that'll give Israel a reason to use their military might to finally obtain land that'll have economic value. Israel cannot sustain itself even if they completely take over the Palestinian territory. They will never be able to do that unless they get their hands on some oil. Pretty scary.

2. What would happen if the Palestinians won this war and got what they wanted?

There would be no Jews in Israel, and the Palestinians finally return to their old homes. Even more scary.

I don't doubt that the people of Israel want peace. After all the bloodshed on both sides, they live in a very disturbed reality. However, the right-winged government doesn't agree. While the country is split right and left straight down the middle, it is the right winged politicians that are in power now. The very same right-winged politicians that destroyed their last great hope for peace in the assasination (or targetted killing, whichever floats your boat) of Rabin. If there was no war, that would lead to the destruction of the right-winged party since they have no answers for the struggling economy. So while they are not outrightedly rejecting peace, they are trying to convince the public that it is simply not feasible.

Honestly, I'm sure even the right-winged politicians in Israel can see this... Terrorism will only be quelled unless the Palestinians are appeased and given some type of concession. By creating new settlements, kicking Palestinians off their lands, and assasinating Palestinian leaders, they are not solving anything and they know that. They are only making the Palestinians more belligerent. The more the Palestinians are wrongged, the more they will listen to their radical leaders.

 

They've already given back TONS of land they have won in a DEFENSIVE war. Ask Egypt

 

I believe that was before they had the nukes...

 

...Before the 1967 Six-Day War, they felt their nuclear facility threatened and reportedly assembled several nuclear devices. By the 1973 Yom Kippur War Israel had a number of sophisticated nuclear bombs, deployed them, and considered using them. The Arabs may have limited their war aims because of their knowledge of the Israeli nuclear weapons....

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/farr.htm

Hmmm. And when was the Sinai returned? 1979?

 

hmm... I stand corrected. By the way, that was a very interesting read. Still, at the risk of escalating the Cold War, Israel wouldn't have the balls to use those nuclear weapons unless they were in a dire situation. I guess it was a good thing that Israel won both wars. I never realized how much of a threat Israel really was back in those days.

 

Dadakota its never ok to kill people. Sorry there are no ifs ands or buts.

 

in over ten long posts, i've had ONE statement which made an improper stereotype, for which i later apologised and rescinded.

never did i call you guys any names or make any personal attack. if you guys cannot win a conventional debate using facts, logic, common sense or even a plain old moral plea, at least you can have the class to restrain yourselves from crass meaningless insults. does resorting to insinuations and slurs make your arguments stronger?

the latest Israeli attack saw it completely miss its Hamas targets. And instead kill and maim a ton of civilians, elderly and children alike. is this still the right thing?

i often wonder, throughout the Israeli crackdown, who have they managed to hurt more, civilians or real terrorists? if for every terrorist Israel kills, 5 civilians must die, would it STILL be the "right thing"? Furthermore, the last Hamas leader they killed WASN'T even a part of the military wing!

to put it more accurately, this thread title should read "Israel is doing the right thing by killing the WRONG Hamas leaders and LOTS of civilians with them".

 

I happen to agree with Peleincubus.

DD, it's fine to have an opinion. But to carelessly insist on your opinion being the right one as if it were a fact is simply arrogance.

Perhaps the appropriate thing to say here is "killing is always wrong, but sometimes it is necessary." Wouldn't that be a whole lot less abrasive and more conducive to discussion?

This goes for all the other posts where people with differing opinions are automatically labeled either 1) wrong, 2) stupid, 3) insensitive, or 4) racist. This is a phenomenon i've observed on this board. Sure it may win you brownie points with others with the same opinion as yourself, but it won't do jack to prove your point.

 

What if said people are trying to kill you or the people you care about? Someone is going to die either way.

 

OldManBernie, don't let them faze you. You've nailed the issue on the head. Most of your post is fantastic, particularly the part i quote above. Don't get drawn into a fight over historical trivialities and conjectures, and lose sight of the big picture that way.

Until a majority of Israelis see the issue your way, the problem would probably never be resolved. The Palestinians would have to be educated too. But as you say, they will never learn our intended lessons through persecution, oppression, and violence.

 

I think your characterization of what would happen is way off. Why would they target other Arab nations? So that they can occupy more land and have more terrorists they have to control? Hell no, they don't want that. As far as getting land that has "economic value," well they are a captalist society, they don't need to obtain more land to prosper. Poor dictatorships like Iraq attempt to aggressively acquire land. They don't need oil either, they are wealthy enough to buy it.

Your criticism off the "right- winged politicians" is short- sighted. Israel has had many liberal governments, including Ehud Barak who offered the Palestinians more than anyone ever thought Israel could give. But none of these liberal governments came up with the solution, and in my opinion made things worse because it gave confidence to the Palestinians that terorrism was making Israel back down and make more concessions.

Sharon is doing the right thing by responding harshly to terrorist attacks, but he will have to go back to the bargaining table.

 

You mean we in the United States are wealthy enough to buy it. Without US billions of dollars of support, Israel would collapse in a week. A country of only a few million people and the military is enormous for their size. If we cut our support I guarantee they would find a solution VERY quickly. They would not be able to financially support the constant violence and the cost of protecting the outside settlements.

Of course that will never happen. Instead of helping our own country we give billions annually as well as military support to Israel as well as to Egypt, Jordan and Saudi because they play 'nicely' with Israel.

What a waste of money.

 

Israel would be self sufficient if there was no terrorism by the palestnians. No tourists = no $$$. If you had your way Khan, you'd let Israel "collapse in a week."

I know you are going to argue "well the Palestinians don't get the billions of dollars that Israel does." So the reason that the Palestinians are committing these acts of terror are because they are poor, hungry, and desperate? They shouldn't blame Israel for alll of this. They need to blame Arafat and his chronies as well.

So F.D. Khan, I ask you a few simple questions. Why is Arafat allowed to amass a fortune (documented as a mulitbillionaire) when his "subjects" go bloodthirsty on Israelis? Why don't other arab/muslim countries send more aid to the Palestinians if they "care" for them so much? Why did Lebanon and Jordan expel and slaughter many Palestinians if they "cared" about them so much? Why is there so much propaganda against Israel by the arab world if they don't even put a toe in to help(unless you consider giving money to the families of suicide bombers help like many Saudis did)?

I know all the Palestinians aren't blind. Could there ever be a civil war against the PA? Someone that could spread the wealth to the people that actually need it. Maybe there are funds coming in from other countries. But do they ever get by Arafats ever-growing bank account?

 

Originally posted by Lil
in over ten long posts, i've had ONE statement which made an improper stereotype, for which i later apologised and rescinded.


Gee, I was only a bigot for a minute.

Don't delude yourself; you don't fool others. Your bigotry is consistent and obvious.

never did i call you guys any names or make any personal attack.

Bigotry is a continuous personal attack. It shows an utter lack of respect for others (that's why you're a jackass). Your attempt to take 'the high road' failed with your bigotry.

if you guys cannot win a conventional debate using facts, logic, common sense or even a plain old moral plea, at least you can have the class to restrain yourselves from crass meaningless insults. does resorting to insinuations and slurs make your arguments stronger?

The simple act of biogtry or racism indicates a proclivity to thick-headedness (that's why you're a dumbass). I have confidence in my facts, logic, and common sense. I also understand how facts, logic and common sense will simply fail on some people.

 

I am not totally convinced it's a waste of money, at least not completely. The military support we give to Israel provides a deterrent to many would be aggressors. They were invaded in 1967, and that proved to be a huge disaster, as Israel took over the occupied territories. By providing a strong defense, all- out war is avoided by deterring countries like Iraq when Saddam was in power. Remember that nuclear reactor Israel took out?

And the money to Egypt does at least stabilize the country. I can only imagine what would happen if we didn't exert some sort of influence. Would we have another Saddam- like dictator or extreme religous regime like the Taliban? Right now, they are friendly to the US and supportive of a Middle East road map to peace.

I know we help Israel a lot, and that they are struggling economically, but make no mistake- they are a thorughly modernized and westernized economy. With an extended period of peace they will be prosperous.

Although- I do think your idea of reducing aid to both countries is a good idea. It's WAY too much money.

 

You don't think that the Israeli's know that the Palestinians want concessions?

First of all.. what is usually the first thing you hear when the Israeli's pull out of a town or dismantles an outpost? It's usually another suicide bombing. The same thing happened when the Israeli army pulled out from the border of lebanon.. what happened? The guerillas up there pushed into the area where the Israeli's were onced stationed and continued to fire missiles.

There is a very large percentage of Israelis that want the Palestinians to have their own land. But a large percentage of those people want it to be founded with a peaceful relationship between Palestinians and Israelis. They don't want it to be a terrorist nation that shoots missiles randomly into Jewish territories(like Islamic Jihad was doing for a long time).

As you can read in my prior post.. I place a lot of the blame on Arafat. Until there is new leadership(on both sides), nothing can be achieved. Until people arent killing people, nothing can be achied. Until people are willing to forget the past and start worrying about their children's future, nothing will be achieved. And until every last palestinian loathes the thought of blowing himself/herself up, nothing can be achieved.

 

There is a very large percentage of Israelis that want the Palestinians to have their own land.

Why did the Israelis reject the Arab Peace Plan out of hand before the Gulf War II when it offered full recognition of pre 1967 Israel if Israel would give back the land?

Why does Israel devote so much of its budget to Palestinian house destruction, and building infrastucture in the occupied territories? How can anyone believe Israel will give the land back if it keeps builging settlements? Are they just building these settlements and roads so they can turn them over to the Palestinians?
Isn't Israel's tactic of rejecting the land for peace deal till the last radical car bomber dies a fruitless path?

 

The Arab Peace Plan was rejected because there wasn't any room for negotiation at all. It was either take it or leave it. In my opinion, if Israel has won land in a defensive war, then it can chose what land is right to give back and what land is necessary for proper defense. As far as being offered full recognition.. what the hell does that mean? Ok, you exist, we might even trade with you if you are lucky.

2nd question.. this is a problem in both of our eyes.. I think settlements should be torn down, not built. Tearing down someone's home is wrong and inexcusable unless it is a base for terror.

3rd question.. Last time I checked, they were also tearing down settlements.. pissing off radicals.. don't get me wrong, the thing that pisses off the palestinians the most is the idea that there are jews on their land.

4th question.. Sure, why not? Thats unless they aren't blown up beforehand.

5th question.. I doubt that this is their tactic and you should be ashamed. It's digusting since their citizens die as well when a radical car bomber blows himself/herself up.

 

You Know What Franchise2001?

I Don't give a DAMN about what happens over there. And I don't give a damn if their tourism is down and that is costing them money. And I don't give a damn about Arafat and corrupt arab countries either. The world is rough, and the truth is that Israel can't stand alone. It is costing me and other US tax payers billions and our relationship is straining our trade with the rest of the world costing us revenue as well.

Don't give me reasons why they need a handout, everybody in the world does. Hell we could use one once in a while.

Why are we responsible if they have terrorism? I'm sick of babysitting that country through its problems. Either learn to survive on your own with your neighbors or shut down. If the US was a corporation and was wasting funds on unproductive resources that simply take and take, there would be an uproar by shareholders. But unfortunately people don't see themselves as having a stake in their country. They see the government as this endless pool of funds to take care of people and spend as they see fit.

If you love Israel so much at the cost of US tax dollars, then go live there. I mean you are stating that because of their problems with tourism, we have to support them?!?!?!?! Since when did their interests supercede our own??

What a joke. Get out of the US and go live there then, we pay almost ever citizen there over thousands in handouts anyway.