Then why is there no outrage on Holder's part? Had a KKK member with a billie club been standing there intimidating black voters, I guarantee he would not drop the case. In either case -- New Black Panther or KKK -- voter intimidation should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. ACORN's role is more insidious, but through voter fraud (of which they are accused) or the coming census fraud) which IMO will be rampant) their role is not as overt. IMO Holder is funneling money to both as fast as he can because they serve his purpose.
I don't believe I've seen any accusations of actual voter fraud, but voter registration fraud on part of ACORN. I also would like to see a link that shows Holder is funneling money to ACORN, or the New Black Panthers. I agree that voter intimidation should be prosecuted.
What exactly is ACORN's role in the census? Where has Holder funnelled any money to ACORN? Do you just make things up?
I read a lot. Would you mind helping me by directing me to your source for the claim that Holder is funneling money to ACORN?
Dont be silly boys. Israel has to do this. No one can blame them. There are a couple of amusing things though: - The fact that a lot of people see Israel in self-defense mode despite the annual expansion in size, population, millitary strength (including nuclear), and wealth for several decades now. - That they even bother callng themselves a democracy. Why do they bother? I don't understand why they do this since no one really cares if they are or aren't. They are as democratic as Iran. It is what it is.
And why is that? How are these mutually exclusive? I would say they are margainally better than Iran, which has an unelected body with veto power. Israel also allows non-Jews to be citizens and vote, though that may not last much longer. The anti-democratic trend is definitely there, which is not surprising given the perpetual state of war.
Amazing how Naive some of the posters are on here. Despite undertaking a full offensive onslaught just about every year people are lulled into believing that Israel is trying to defend itself. When that is brought into question the holocaust is brought up as justification for all this. So much to the point where it is an excuse for their brutality and oppression. It is useless trying to prove a point on here. For those that don't know, Israel is fully capable of defending itself, for all the billions of dollars in aid we give to them we don't need to be their watchdogs. Call me when you are capable enough to come to a conjecture without the help of FOX news or what have you.
1) To secure itself. This is the most important thing. If this doesn't work, no one will give them a home again. 2) lol. 3) They are not better at all. Also, it's no trend. It has never been different. Finally, they chose to have this war. No rational human can say that they weren't confidently accepting that war was a part of the deal.
They have to supress free speech to secure themselves? So you can't defend your claim. Gotcha. Who said anything about better? Iran has elections that are subject to the approval of an unelected body, unlike Israel. Can you tell me how you can consider them equivalent, in this light? There are elements of democracy in Israel that are in danger of being eliminated. That's a trend. [quoteFinally, they chose to have this war. No rational human can say that they weren't confidently accepting that war was a part of the deal.[/QUOTE] Who's "they"?
The idea that the Israeli government is on par with Iran's is ridiculous. Iran has an unelected leadership structure that acts as a puppet master over an elected government. Now, you could argue that the elected government of Israel is just as bad as the state of Iran, but they are democratic. Iran is not.
Are you trying to dispute that there haven't been attacks/counterattacks since the creation of Israel? You act as if everything is so one-sided. Let's see if you can read bold. And no... I don't watch Fox News. http://www.historyguy.com/arab_israeli_wars.html Israeli War of Independence/ "al-Nakba" (The Disaster) (1948-1949)--Upon independence, Israel was invaded by the armies of six Arab nations: Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan), Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. In addition, local Arab Palestinian forces also fought the Jewish Israelis. Qibya Raid (October, 1951)—Israeli troops, led by Major Ariel Sharon (Israeli Prime Minister 2001-2006) destroyed dozens of buildings in the West Bank (Jordan) town of Qibya. Civilian deaths reached 69. Egyptian Seizure of the Israeli ship Bat Galim (Summer, 1954)—Egypt seized the Israeli ship Bat Galim as it attempted to enter the Suez Canal. According to various international agreements, the Suez Canal is supposed to be accessible to ships of all nations. This provoked worsening tensions between Israel and Egypt. Gaza Raid (Feb. 28, 1955)—Israeli forces conducted a raid, a response to repeated guerrilla attacks and the seizure of an Israeli ship by Egypt, resulted in the deaths of 51 Egyptian soldiers and 8 Israeli troops. This raid was the largest of its kind against Arab forces since the end of the First Arab-Israeli War in 1949. The Sinai War (1956) [Also known as the Suez War]--The invasion and temporary conquest of Egypt's Sinai Peninsula by Israel, while France and Great Britain seized the Suez Canal. Palestinian-Israeli Conflict (1960-Present)--Israel faced guerrilla and terrorist warfare from several Palestinian armies, most of whom united under the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), led by Yassir Arafat. Current fighting involves Israel against more religiously militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, as well as against Arafat's Palestinian Authority. (This includes the Palestinian guerrilla warfare against Israel from the 1960's, original Intifada (1988-1992) and the current "Al-Aqsa" Intifada (2000-Present), and the West Bank (2004) and Gaza Invasions (2006) by Israel and the Palestinian suicide and rocket attacks which prompted those invasions. (See below.) First al-Fatah (PLO) Raid (Dec. 31, 1964)—Yassir Arafat’s al-Fatah faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization conducted its first raid into Israel from Lebanon. Israeli-Syrian Border and Air Battle (Nov. 13, 1964)—Israel and Syria both claimed sovereignty over several Demilitarized Zones along their border. These Zones were set up as part of the cease-fire ending the First Arab-Israeli War. Israel attempted to farm the land in these Zones, while Syria developed a project to divert water from the Jordan River, which Israel shared with both Syria and Jordan. Syrian forces often fired on Israeli tractors attempting to farm the Zones, while Israel looked for ways to interrupt the Syrian diversion project. On Nov. 13, 1964, Syrian forces stationed on the top of the Golan Heights, a plateau overlooking Israeli territory in the Jordan River valley, fired on Israeli tractors. Israeli forces returned fire. Syrian artillery then targeted Israeli civilian villages. Israel responded with air attacks on Syrian forces. This battle resulted in 4 Israeli dead and 9 wounded. Syrian losses included two tanks and machines involved in the diversion project. One result of this clash was Syria’s accelerated acquisition of more and better Soviet-made fighter planes. (Oren, 2001). West Bank Raids (May 1965)—After Palestinian guerrilla raids resulting in the deaths of 6 Israelis, the Israeli military conducted raids on the West Bank towns of Qalqilya, Shuna and Jenin. 1966—Israel reported 93 incidents along its borders. West Bank Raid (April 30 1966)—Israeli forces destroyed over two dozen houses in the West Bank town of Rafat, killing 11 civilians. This attack was in response to Palestinian raids on Israel. Most of these attacks on Israel West Bank Raids (1966)—Israeli forces raided the Hebron area of the West Bank. These raids resulted in 8 civilian deaths and firefights with the Jordanian Army. Israeli-Syrian Border Battles (Summer, 1966)—Continued artillery and tank duels along the Golan Heights front led to : Israeli-Syrian Air Battle (July 7, 1966)—Responding to the continued fighting along the border, Israeli planes attacked Syrian forces, resulting in the loss of one Syrian MiG fighter plane. Israeli-Syrian Air/Sea Battle (Aug. 15, 1966)—After an Israeli patrol boat ran aground on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee (according to the 1949 cease-fire agreement, Israeli forces were not supposed to approach within 250 meters of the eastern shore, which was a Demilitarized Zone), Syrian planes attacked it. Israel responded, shooting down two MiG planes. Samu Raid (West Bank) (November 13, 1966)—Following a land mine explosion which killed three Israeli policemen and wounded one, Israel decided to launch a large retaliatory raid (called Operation Shredder) into the West Bank, to strike at a Palestinian (al-Fatah) guerrilla base near Hebron. Designed to show Israeli military strength, the raiding force consisted of 10 tanks, forty half-tracks (a troop transportation vehicle) and around 400 soldiers. The force enjoyed air cover from Israeli war planes. This force destroyed a police station at the town of Rujm al-Madfa’ and then moved on to the town of Samu’. As the Israelis demolished houses in Samu’, a small Jordanian force approached and was ambushed by the Israelis. This battle resulted in 15 Jordanian dead and 54 wounded. The leader of the Israeli ambush was killed and 10 of his men wounded. Israeli planes chased off the Jordanian air force, shooting down a Jordanian fighter plane. This raid also resulted in 3 Arab civilian deaths and 96 wounded. Besides the large numbers of casualties (on both sides) from what was supposed to be a relatively swift and easy raid, Israel suffered diplomatic setbacks. The United States was quite upset over this large attack on one of Washington’s few Arab friends (Jordan’s King Hussein) and at the lack of response to the Syrians, who were the true sponsors of most Palestinian attacks in Israel. Riots broke out in Jordan at the seemingly ineffectual response of the Jordanian military and its apparent inability to protect Palestinian civilians in the West Bank. The Samu raid inflamed Arab public opinion in the Middle East and turned out to be one of the factors leading up to the Six-Day War of 1967. The Six-Day War (1967)--In a rapid pre-emptive attack, Israel crushed the military forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria and seized large amounts of land from each. Iraq also participated in the fighting on the Arab side. The War of Attrition (1968-1970)--The War of Attrition was a limited border war fought between Egypt and Israel in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. It was initiated by Egypt as a way to recapture the Sinai Peninsula after losing it to Israel in 1967. A cease-fire in 1970 ended the fighting, but left the borders unchanged. The Yom Kippur (Ramadan) War (1973)--In a surprise attack launched on the Jewish Yom Kippur holiday (the dates also fell on the Muslim Ramadan holiday), Egypt and Syria attacked Israel. Despite aid from Iraq, the Arab forces failed to defeat Israel. Israeli Invasion of Lebanon (1978)--Operation Litani was the official name of Israel's 1978 invasion of Lebanon up to the Litani river. The invasion was a military success, as the Israeli military expelled the PLO from Southern Lebanon, where they had created a de facto state within a state. An international outcry over the invasion forced a partial Israeli retreat and the creation of a United Nations patrolled buffer zone between the Arab guerrillas and the Israeli military. See also The Israeli-Lebanon Conflict (1978-Present). The Osirak Raid (1981)--An Israeli air attack on Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor. The Israeli Invasion of Lebanon (1982-1984)--In response to repeated guerrilla attacks by the PLO, which were launched from South Lebanon, Israel invaded with the intent of destroying Arafat's forces. Syria, which maintained a large army in Lebanon, fought Israel and suffered an embarrassing defeat. See The Israeli-Lebanon Conflict (1978-Present). The Israeli Occupation of South Lebanon (1984-2000)--As they withdrew from most of Lebanon seized in the 1982 invasion, Israel held onto a large part of Southern Lebanon with the aid of the "South Lebanon Army (SLA)," a militia set up and supported by Israel. This occupation was opposed by the PLO and other Palestinian groups as an extension of their long-running conflict with Israel. Also, other militia armies (mostly Lebanese Muslim groups), such as Hezbollah (supported by Iran and Syria), stepped up attacks on the Israeli-occupied region as well as on settlements and military targets in northern Israel. In 2000, Israel withdrew from Lebanon and the SLA disbanded. See The Israeli-Lebanon Conflict (1978-Present). The First Intifada (1987-1993)--Urban uprising against Israeli rule in the West Bank and Gaza. The Oslo Peace Accords end the Intifada and lead to the formation of the Palestinian Authority with PLO Chief Yasser Arafat as the official leader of the Palestininans. The Second Persian Gulf War (1991)--While Israel took no offensive action in this war, Iraq did launch Scud missiles which struck Israel and almost caused Israel's intervention in the Gulf War. The "Al-Aqsa" Intifada--Urban guerrilla/commando war waged between Israel and various Palestinian groups, including Hamas. Between September, 2000 and, September, 2007: 4,453 Palestinians and 1,114 Israelis have been killed due to the escalating violence. (Source on casualties: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2003911771_intifada29.html) Israeli Air Strike on Syria (October, 2003)-- Israeli warplanes hit the Syrian village of Ain al-Saheb, near Damascus. The Israeli-Hezbollah War (also known in Israel as "The Second Lebanon War (2006)--In response to repeated guerrilla attacks by the the Shiite Lebanese militia Hezbollah, Israel invaded southern Lebanon, set up a naval blockade, and launched a powerful bombing campaign in order to win the release of two captured Israeli soldiers. The Israeli-Lebanon Conflict (1978-Present). Israeli Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance. See War and Conflict Journal's article on this attack. The Gaza War (2008)--War between the Palestinian Hamas rulers of the Gaza Strip and Israel. Began in December, 2008.
The difference with Technoviking stems from the manner and method of its formation. After WW2, the UN decided that the concentration camp survivors needed a homeland. Boom! They were moved to Israel. The idea was to have a Jewish state. Fast forward 60 years. Now we expect Israel to become something other than what they are. Strange concept. We continue to support Israel because we helped create Israel. It is not the outcome that most of us desire, but it isn't all that hard to understand when you look at the history.
Techno Viking? How does that dude have any relevance to this discussion? There was no "Boom! UN moved them to [area that is now Israel]" after WWII.. Jewish migration had already begun by 1882 (look up Zionism and the Balfour Declaration), continuing through the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and long after WW II ended. These Aliyahs resulted in the equivalent of massive illegal immigration of Jews into Arab territory. The UN Partition Plan for Palestine did indeed envisage a Jewish state, but it also included a separate Arab state with Jerusalem shared between the 2 territories and monitored by the UN. We are not expecting them to become something else because the nation was never what was planned to be. Nevermind taking into consideration how the Arabs felt in the Jaffa riots (1921) and the violent confrontation between the illegal settlers and the residents in the 1930s. Btw, this was before the Holocaust. This is like the UN now allowing illegal Hispanic immigrants to cross the US border and take up residence under threat of force; America withheld aid to Britain after Britain started arresting Jewish immigrants who illegally came into Palestine. How would you feel about that? And no, it is downright obfuscating when you look at the region's history to support this new measure.
To answer your questions (out of courtesy more than anything): 1) They need to do things which require the supression of free speech. It's dirty work, but necessary. 2) The President of Iran has to be a Shiite Muslim much like the President of Israel has to be Jewish. The unelected body is subject to oversight and nothing else. If we are speaking officially and leaving out what goes on behind the scenes, Iran is basically the U.S.A. with a spiritual leader. It is, after all, an Islamic Republic. The purpose of having a spiritual leader is because they have recognized that the President will not always be the most knowledgeable person in the country regarding religion. The President is an expert on politics and spiritual leader is in charge of ensuring that the politics remain within the boundaries of Islamic Sharia - a body of LAW which sits above all other LAWS, regardless of their nature. Israel's elections have shown time and time again that political experience and qualifications lag far behind plans for the Jewish state. I agree with the idea. I disagree with the application of it and am disgusted by the direction of it. But it is what it is. On the outside, Israel may have a nudge. But in terms of transparency, it is unbelievably sad to say that Iran puts Israel to shame. 3) Israel has never been a democracy. The reason it exists completely defeats the notion of democracy. I'm wondering what these elements are which you think are on a downward trend. Israel, politically, has not changed since it came into existence. It was never and will never be a democracy as defined in any dictionary. Thanks for the comments. Please don't waste your time with the usual new set of questions or request for information, unless you expect someone else to respond. Your method of wasting other posters' time through continuous requests and questions while never being willing to show your own sources is getting old to me a bit. You ask a lot of good questions and thanks for that. It's just that it's difficult for me, personally, to appreciate your debating style. Nothing personal, honestly. I hope you don't take it to heart.
I'm no expert in Sharia law but I don't think it says to behead Jews. I'm also not aware of Palestinians gaining nuclear capability. If you can show me where the Black Panthers undertook anything remotely resembling Crystal Nacht or have officially, or unofficially, been made an arm of the US government your analogy is way off.
