Jeff -- fair concern...I don't know the answer to that one. Honestly, I think it's job one of the FEDERAL government to defend the borders and protect its citizens. The states largely handle education. Health care is another matter...a trickier matter of which I remain ignorant, quite frankly..not an issue I've spent a ton of time studying. I'm afraid of my concept of socialized medicine, that's for sure. But I also recognize that there are people out there who need medical treatment that might not be receiving it. That concerns me. But honestly, I'm not sure that should be the job of the federal govt...I just don't know...
Mango, in your haste to take issue you've gotten silly. Responding in kind, Do you think that the only way to support a cause is to vote?
An example of how the permissible range of dissnet for Sharon type policies is greater in Israel than among American Jews and their knejerk supporters is: Michael Ben-Yair, Israel's attorney general in the mid-1990s, recently described the Palestinian intifada as a "war of national liberation", adding: "We enthusiastically chose to become a colonialist society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities ... we established an apartheid regime". here Can you imagine an elected official in the US saying such remarks?
There are other ways, but the Sharon goverment which views force as the answer to many problems, was put into power by voters in Israel rather than the <i>the alliance of US Jews, who are generally more hostile to the Palestinians</i>. The implied power/influence that you attribute to the US Jewish population on matters pertaining to Israel will eventually resolve to a vote of some type (funding, trade, Federal elections, UN etc). So it all comes down to a vote if viewed at a base level. <b>I answered your question, YOU DUCKED mine and called me silly</b>? That is OK..........things like that give me a reason to keep posting against you. There is a sentiment by some in Israel that their supporters in the US aren't doing enough. <A HREF="http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/politics/articles/pol_0128.htm"> Diplomats, activists complain U.S. Jewish groups failing to mobilize for Israel</A> <i> Jewish communities across America took to the streets Sunday in a show of support for Israel. The Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations announced a solidarity rally in Washington D.C. on Israel Independence Day next week. But Israeli diplomats, along with Jews active in communal and campus pro-Israel activities, say that American Jewry's efforts on Israel's behalf are too little, and too late. About 10,000 people demonstrated Sunday in support of Israel at the United Nations building in New York. The demonstration was organized not by mainstream Jewish organizations, but by an ad hoc group of right-wing activists, including - Betar, Rabbi Avi Weiss from the Bronx and his Coalition for Jewish Concerns-AMCHA, and Americans for a Secure Israel. Shai Rubinstein, Betar's central emissary in North America, told Ha'aretz that the demonstration was also an indirect protest against the impotence of the Jewish leadership. The Jewish public waited in vain, so we set out to organize the demonstration, he said. Ha'aretz also cited a sermon on the concluding festival "Now is the time for action, and we're showing up late" - Jewish activist Mort Berger day of Passover by an Orthodox rabbi in Brooklyn, who cried out, "The Jews of New York will be called to judgment for their silence during this hour of distress for Israel." Israel's consul general in New York, Alon Pinkas, offered a secular version: "The situation in Israel weighed down on the holiday vacation of American Jews and their leaders, but not enough to cause them to interrupt it." And an unnamed senior Israeli diplomatic official in the United States told of his two-word response, three days after the deadly Seder night attack at a Netanya hotel, to an urgent telegram from Jerusalem asking for a report on what the Jewish community was doing: "Not much." Ha'aretz quoted Pinkas as criticizing the ineffectiveness of Jewish organizations. "All they know how to do is convene meetings and listen to briefings on the situation in Israel," he said. "Even in the information campaign directed at the American media, Jewish involvement is not being felt." An NBC News/Wall St. Journal poll, released Tuesday, indicates that 45% of Americans say they sympathize with Israel while only 14% side with the Palestinians. According to a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll, released on Monday, Americans were four times as likely to support Israel as the Palestinians. Although surveys show American Jewish support for Israel is also on the rise, some activists consider the communal response inadequate and ineffective. "Showing up at your local JCC for a rally is one thing. But actually traveling to Israel and showing your support is entirely a different beast," Israeli-American Dana Asher said. "Israel is bleeding right now -- politically, emotionally, and economically -- and it needs the help of the American Jewish community." Jewish communal leaders are accused of not attending to the gravity of the crisis, and are in fact distancing themselves from direct action. The complaints include the fact that annual federation-sponsored solidarity missions to Israel are being scrapped, popular teen trips to the region are being canceled, and support for Israel is being reduced to lip service. "Synagogue sermons are not enough," explains Jewish activist Mort Berger. "I would like to say that now is the time for action. But I'm afraid that time has already come, and we're showing up late." At an event in Minneapolis, Susan Shapiro, president of the Jewish Community Relations Council of Minnesota and the Dakotas, said letters, phone calls and e-mails to elected representatives are crucial. "I urge you to use your voice," she told the 2,000 in attendance at Minneapolis's Temple Israel. "When your voices are heard, we will be that much closer to our vision of a land of peace." But many, like Berger, feel that rallies and are only a way for American Jews to feel a little less guilty. "At the end of the day, a solidarity demonstration is basically pointless," Berger says. "At the end of the day, people are still dying and suffering in Israel. And not only that, but these rallies receive very little press, are outnumbered by the pro-Palestinian rallies, and have zero effect on the goings on in Israel." "We need to make Aliyah, to visit Israel, and to pump some much needed money into their economy," Berger added. "We need to show the world we're not afraid. We're resilient and we will not give up." Pro-Palestinian demonstrations heat up college campuses At the University of California, Berkeley, and at dozens of other college campuses across the U.S., college students marched on Tuesday in opposition to Israel's policies. Berkeley was the scene of the biggest demonstration, with a thousand protestors occupying a classroom building. In a scene reminiscent of the 60s, in the very same place where anti-Vietnam rallies were held, the pro-Palestinian students say they're adopting the same kind of activism. Some students hung a Palestinian flag from a third-story window, while others marched in the hallways of the building, which houses classrooms for Middle Eastern studies. Campus police eventually arrested 79 pro-Palestinian protesters who had occupied the building. Micah Padant, who calls himself an anti-Zionist Jew, spoke at the Berkeley rally. "The Jewish people will never have shalom, peace, and safety until we pursue justice for the Palestinian people," he told the crowd, while wearing a black "Free Palestine" t-shirt and a yellow armband with Arabic letters written on it. Padant was criticized by Jewish students who fear that the new pro-Palestinian activism has anti-Semitic overtones that could lead to violence in America, just as it already has in Europe. Adam Weisberg, the director of the Hillel Jewish Student Center of Berkeley, said that recently someone hurled a cinderblock through the Center's glass front door. "Anti-Semitic graffiti was scrawled there as well," he said. "There was an attack on two identifiably Jewish members of the community shortly thereafter." Tuesday, American Jewish students, observing the annual Holocaust Memorial Day, read aloud the names of victims of the Holocaust. They were confronted by Arab students accusing Israel of creating a new Holocaust with the actions of the IDF in Palestinian cities - only with the Palestinians as the victims. They also called for the university to divest all Israel-related investments. "This really should be Holocaust prevention day," said Sarah Weir, a 23-year-old cognitive science major. </i> Mango
That was not a legit comparison because the attorney general of Israel is not an elected official. <A HREF="http://www.lectlaw.com/files/int19.htm">The Basic Legal System Of Israel</A> <i>.............The Attorney General, the chief legal adviser to the government and the head of the prosecution, heads the government legal service and holds exclusive power to represent the state in all major criminal, civil and administrative matters. The government is bound to abstain from any action which, in the opinion of the Attorney General, is unlawful, as long as the courts do not rule otherwise. <b>Although appointed by the government, </b>the Attorney General functions totally independently of the political system. <i> Mango
Nice try but no cigar, Mango. Again, playing your silly game. I answered your question. Generally speaking Americans including Jews don't vote in Israei elections. Voting is not the only way to support an issue. Fro instance you were not voting when you made your last post. How about answering mine? Is voting the only way to show support? Don't try to wiggle out of it by saying congress votes or some other irrelevant statement. Mango, try to actually stte opinions. You can than back them up by as many facts or links as you wish. Just little silly questions that only you think are clever or revealing with dozens of links attached. is not effective except an an annoyance. As I've stated before don't be afraid to have an opinion on an issue. We won't bite you. You fool noone by your pseudo objective, psudeo fact based nonopinions. You'll excuse me if I don't play your game by linking to a dozen irrlevant articles on this post. If you wish I'll direct you to some interesting links in another post.
There is an interesting video of an Israeli atrocity that escaped the censors and that caused a sensation in Israel and annoyed the government extremely. It shows the scene after the Israelis killed an innocent Palestinian woman by blowing her door down and then failing to get her medical aid while she could be saved. To see this video 1) go to the folowing link 2) the in the blue left side column click on "video of Israeli military operation escapes censors. (YOU NEED REAL PLAYER) video link
Since you didn't read my earlier post: <i> There are other ways,.............The implied power/influence that you attribute to the US Jewish population on matters pertaining to Israel will eventually resolve to a vote of some type (funding, trade, Federal elections, UN etc). So it all comes down to a vote if viewed at a base level. </i> Do Powell, Arafat, Sharon, Pres. Bush etc read our contributions in the Hangout to formulate policy in the ME? Have you been able to sway Rocketman Tex or treeman from their opinions on this subject? As has been noted before, most here in the Hangout that participate in these threads already have viewpoints on the ME issues. If you glance up higher in this thread, I asked Rocketman Tex a sharp question. As far as links.......I know how to find the Guardian and I gave you the link to <A HREF="http://www.antiwar.com/">Antiwar.com</A> Mango
How has Isreal supported us? Seems we the only ones that ever sed troops anywhere? Some may talk **** with us or throw a lil money . . . but putting their boys and girls out there. . . fuggetaboutit Rocket River
Mango, thank you very much for the link to antiwar.com. My point really is that you would do much better actually trying to address these important moral and political issues of our times rather than just trying to nitpick. For instance it really doesnt matter if I say elected official or politician. That is not the central point. Just like it doesn't matter if I nitpick with you over whether all political support invloves voting or not. Thses are important moral and polticial issues and just picking at small largely irrelevant points in an obsessive fashion is not doing justice to these important matters. All of your posts seem to be of this nature. Miniscule fault finding and links to try to correct minor factuial errors. To what purpose? I still think you might actually add mcuh more to the discussion by stating opinions of your own at least at times.
That's why I think it is an important question to be addressed. Not knowing is what causes the problems. On education, the federal government contributes both funds and policy to public schools in America. Yes, local governments are repsonsible for implementing policy and the bulk of singular education funding but they rarely cover: After school programs Programs for at-risk children Programs for special needs and disabled children Head Start programs These are just a few of the many programs that are funded through federal education grants every single year. There are entire divisions of most large school districts whose funding comes entirely from federal grants. My mom is a perfect example. She is the Director of the Safe and Drug Free Schools program for HISD. Something like 98 percent of their funding is federal. I agree that healthcare is a complex issue and it isn't worth debating here. I guess my point is best summed up this way: This year, there are more than 10 million homeless children living on the streets of America. What good is it to protect our borders if we cannot protect the people inside them?
Political support (or lack of) must have a connection to a vote at a base level. If there isn't a threat of a vote, then we are likely in a country ruled by a dictatorship. If you are able to sway enough people to your side, (anti Bush and somewhat negative to Israel) then a vote or two might be changed in an election. Perhaps, others join your cause and the next US President takes a decidely pro Palestinian stand. Isn't your posting of views/opinons/articles on the BBS an effort to sway opinion to a pro Palestinian viewpoint? Wouldn't a change in the US stance on the ME please you? To accomplish that goal......... new votes or changing old votes will be needed. Mango
I think that's a very valid question, but if we decide that peace isn't practically possible, or that it's just not going to happen, then we need to be thinking about a whole other strategy. If so then what were doing now is not working towards a solution. It's more like playing the fiddle while Rome burns. BTW, here's an article that suggests the Israelis may be systematically destroying the Palestinian government infrastructure. This further suggests that they have no real interest in giving the Palestinians any form of self government. http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/04/10/mideast_infrastructure020410 In this uprising, however, there was very little violence before the Israelis started firing real bullets into crowds. The overwhelming majority of the first few hundred deaths were Palestinians. I'm certainly not condoning the suicide bombings, strapping up your 18 year old daughter with explosives and sending her off to kill herself and a dozen innocent civilians is about as abhorrent as it gets, but in this uprising it looks like the Israelis escalated things first. Perhaps they knew the Palestinians would respond in a way that would swing public opinion back to the Israelis? I'm only speculating on this point. I suspect that there is a radical fringe that will attempt to attack Israel forever, but the bulk of the suicide bombing is fuelled by the increased level of hate that this recent conflict has bred in the area, IMO. There wasn't much of this type of bombing before. And frankly, this escalated hate seemed to occur after the Israelis started slaughtering Palestinians. I think the only way to deal with this problem is to deal with the hate. Both sides need to step back. By retaliating they are only fuelling the hate which just prompts more retaliation and the situation gets worse, not better. I don't think the Israelis will be able to break the Palestinian militants, because many of them are organised and funded from outside, and the Israeli attacks only strengthens their resolve and cause. I don't believe that there is a military solution to this problem. Agreed. We need to start thinking of new ways of approaching the problem. The military solution alone will only drive guys like OBL deeper underground, and it's just not possible to stop all terrorist attack against North America, IMO. We need to try to deal with the hate that fuels these guys and causes moderates to support them. I'm not so sure this is true. Islam considers Christianity and Judaism legitimate faiths. The Koran tells Muslims to respect us. It also strictly forbids suicide. The terrorists are the extremist. I had a conversation with several Muslims who told me that they have no problem with Jews at all, just the Zionists. For them it's a political dispute about land. It is true that the US is a lightening rod for much discontent, though. It's too bad that the UN isn't stronger. If they could play an effective policing role then fewer people would be fixating on the US and transferring their other issues into an anti-US/West hatred. Yeah, there seems to be growing agreement that Arafat and Sharon have to go. Maybe new faces could come up with new solutions. I'm not sure there is a line in the sand when we can say, "enough is enough" because then what do we do? I think that the military solution won't work and will only make the situation worse in the long run. Afraid of public medicine? Come up to the great white north for a visit MM, and allay your fears. Our system is going through some strains right now, we're having a national commission look into ways of updating it, but it's been in place for about 35 years without significant changes, so it's probably high time we did some updating. You won't find anybody in Canada who would advocate going to an American style system though. I think the US is the only first world country without public health care, and I can't figure out why you haven't implemented it yet. What are your concerns? (This may be another tread)
Mango as I said before I consider the vote issue to be a minor and I must say unineresting point. I only raised it as an attempt to respond in kind to your post-- not because I thought it was important. If you want to blow it up to being on par with the question of what is to be done in Palestine, what can I say? You'd be more interesting, at least to me, if you would state opinions germane to the main topic of the thread at hand rather than engage in constant attempts to attack larger points by minor fault finding or little what I'll call "Socratic" questions. You know what? Peace, if that is what you really are interesting in doing most . Count me out.
I love derailing threads. We are the only one without, you are right. It is the old slippery slope argument, Grizzled. Politicians claim it is a stepping stone to communism, basically. So when is Canada going red? Incidentally, around 1993 when Clinton was talking health care there were polls and they would often show that the American people would want to try a single payer system like Canada. Once you got past the political jargon most experts wanted it too - it (the type) has been superior for some time.
rim -- not really the move towards communism that scares me...but rather quality of health care...profit motive for good doctors...waiting days before I can see a doctor (or take my son to see a doctor). The horror story in my mind comes from Great Britain. In our country, wait time for hip replacement surgery is about a week. Wait time in England is over a year!!! That's a lot of pain to deal with for a year. It's the quality of care diminishing that is my primary concern.
Back to why Bush is useless: His 'tax cut'/tax advance. I'm getting fed up with Republicans. They're making Democrats look like they know what they are talking about.
