I didn't see this posted in the D & D already so please remove if there already is a thread on this topic. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8931552/ Thoughts?
This is a great step. It isn't good that as this was all coming into play settlements in the west bank were being increased, but this is a positive. It also is a negative that hamas claims they will continue to attack after the Gaza pull out. What I believe will happen and what I hope will happen is that as Israel does this, the bitterness towards them will diminish, and attacks by Hamas will start to receive less and less popular support.
I think this is a great step in the direction of peace. I would never have thought Ariel Sharon would give an inch, but i guess time and conflict can change anyone. Hopefully, there is a smooth transition and a Palestinian country is soon created without oppression. I just hope that some of the Terror groups don't start attacking when the Israeli's are leaving, which will cause retaliations. That and I hope the terror groups don't claim it was their work instead of the work of Abbas and others and shoot guns in the air proclaiming they won a great battle and promoting terrorism.
Oh, I agree completely AgRock. Was just pointing out that FD's 2 "hopes" were in vain (Hamas is not joking when they say "From the river to the sea"), and that Hamas and the PA/Fatah are - sadly - rapidly and seemingly irreversibly on the road to civil war: See Hamas celebrating here: Thousands of supporters of Islamist fundamentalist movement Hamas gathered en masse in Khan Yunis to celebrate the coming end of Israel's 38-year occupation of the Gaza Strip....Masked members of Hamas's armed Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades, which has been responsible for most anti-Israeli attacks during the near five-year Palestinian uprising, carried homemade rockets, green Hamas and Palestinian flags. ========= See Hamas claim responsibility for the withdrawl and pledge more attacks here: “With the blood of our martyrs we kicked the enemies out,” read one new Hamas banner in Abu Khaled’s shop, alluding to a Palestinian revolt that raged from 2000 until a ceasefire this year that has been generally heeded by militant factions. “Gaza is the start of liberation and it will not be the last departure of the occupation,” said another banner in the shop, whose walls were adorned by posters of Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, assassinated by Israeli forces in 2004. ========= See Hamas challenge the authority of the PA while pledging more attacks here: the founders and top political leaders of Hamas gathered on the same stage Saturday, vowing to go on fighting Israel and claiming victory for its impending withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. In a direct challenge to the Palestinian Authority, the militant groups’ top brass said it rejects the idea of a sole decision-making body for the area and insists it has the right to possess weapons. Tensions between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas have heated up in the days before Israel begins its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and four West Bank settlements, with each trying to claim victory for the pullout. On Saturday, Hamas leaders positioned themselves in front of the group’s logo and a green Islamic flag to send a message that they have the right to possess weapons and to claim responsibility for pushing Israel out of the Gaza Strip. ========= See Hamas again take credit and pledge continued terrorism here: A top Hamas figure in Gaza, Ahmed al-Bahar says “Israel has never been in such a state of retreat and weakness as it is today following more than four years of the intifada. Hamas’s heroic attacks exposed the weakness and volatility of the impotent Zionist security establishment. The withdrawal marks the end of the Zionist dream and is a sign of the moral and psychological decline of the Jewish state. We believe that the resistance is the only way to pressure the Jews.”
Though it may be sad to note. Really the only progress in the last 30 years occurred when the Palestinians began attacking Isreali's. They then forced Israel to extend its defenses to those areas and the settlements costing the government a significant amount of money. If there had not been violence, Israel would not have been as willing to give up the settlements and the high cost of protecting them. Similar to how many are against troops and others dying in Iraq, many in Isreal just wanted out of the Palestinian areas. Though it took a force of peace from Abbas, that was a card he wouldn't have had to play had it not been for the violence. I'm not advocating terrorism, i think its despicable to attack innocents, but Israel's statehood in the early 20th century and the Palestinian statehood both seem to have terrorism in their roots.
As far as Hamas celebrating, I believe they should be, and so should all Palestinians. It is a great step towards peace that is going on, and worthy of celebration. I see nothing wrong with celebrating. Their pledges of continued attacks is what is wrong. Anyone who pledges such a thing should be locked up. What I hope is that despite the talk now, is that at least where Gaza is concerned, having land they can inhabit peacefully, without the settlers there will make the general populace less willing, to carry out attacks which could jeopardize their recent gains. I think time spent living a better peaceful life is the best remedy for people who feel hopeless and powerless and therfore willing to support or carry out the cowardly terrorist attacks. I'm sure it was hard seeing their ancestral homes they had lived on for centuries occupied by groups of people from Chicago, NY, Paris, etc. They are no longer having occupiers living there who want to get rid of all Arabs no matter what. Surely over time that will ease some tensions.
Interesting analysis FD Khan. I've often wished that the Palestinians would have their version of Nelson Mandela but then remember that Mandela was a guerilla leader and the ANC fought an armed conflict for decades against South Africa. You might be right but its sad that there isn't a nonviolent way to solve things. Kind of makes one appreciate Ghandi all the more.
I know how you feel. But really as much as I respect Ghandi (I'm from Pakistan!), I really feel the only reason that Pakistan and India along with other colonies got their independance was because of World War II. Nazi Germany so hurt Europe it could not afford to spread its troops and maintain its colonies. So really many believe that WWII is a primary cause for the freedom from Colonization of Africa, the middle east and much of Asia.
so the killing of U.S soldiers is ??...war??..i'm sorry Azadre the definition of terrorism is not so easy that you can define it in two words.
I am heartened by the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, and hope it's taken as a positive 'building block' for a future peaceful settlement between the two sides. The complete 180 degree turn Sharon made regarding settlements could be summed up really in two words: changing demographics. The ISraelis are NOT stupid, naive, or ignorant to long-term realities that they were confronted with. When Sharon was asked once as to why he changed his stance on settlements from being the 'Father of settlements' to someone who is vowing to uproot them his response was simple: he said that he saw things from a vantage point (leadership position) that he didn't see before, and therefore his understanding of the new reality on the ground forced him to change his views. Ironically enough, all the Arab regimes were dismayed when Sharon first came to power, although now it seems to me that the only Israeli leader that had the 'credibility' to force those settlers to leave WAS in fact Sharon himself, because no one could accuse him of taking a 'soft-line' against the Palestinians and appeasing them; Sharon is as hardline as you could get in Israeli politics, although Netanyahu might have just overtaken him as Israel's foremost 'hardliner'. I just hope this leads to a good vibe between the two sides. If for nothing else, the prolonged cease-fire between the two sides for months now (with few exceptions of course, although nothing too dramatic) is something that should be utilized by the US to push for a peaceful settlement. Abbas has really been nothing short of of a 'man of his word', and he has asserted himself like Arafat never could, or rather never would. Abbas has taken a hardline position against Palestinian militants and vowed to punish those who break the cease-fire, which is already more than Arafat ever did. IMO, if the Israelis and the US can't work with Abbas as the Palestinian leader, they can't work with anyone.
