I don't know if you noticed, but there are 15 million Jews and roughly 1.5 billion Muslims. I like how you say "alleged" for just one of the above though. Nicely done.
in America, the populations are pretty close. Muslim - 2.4 million - 7 million, Judaism - 6,544,000 (numbers according to wikipedia). At least close enough to not explain the numbers in the hate crime stats.
Your numbers appear to be way off. According to Wikipedia, there are about 5-6 million Jews in the USA and somewhere between 2.5 and 7 million Muslims. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States I said "alleged" as this crime is being investigated and there appears to be no result of the investigation yet. The other ones are from the official FBI statistics, so I assume the investigations have been concluded in those cases. Sorry that you did not understand this.
ATW and tallanvor, Those are the numbers for the whole world obviously. I was using the world population because ATW used the word "media" generally in that statement, and I was pointing out that it's unlikely that there are more hate crimes against Jews, unless you mean proportionally or restricted to an arbitrary geographical location. ATW, You said alleged Islamophobia. You didn't seem to be speaking about this specific case. My bad.
If you look at the article tallanvor posted, it is specifically referring to (and linking to) statistics by the FBI about hate crimes in the USA - about 8-9 times more hate crimes against Jews than against Muslims. This is what we were discussing. It is not arbitrary. Apparently you missed that...read first.
That's my parents' hometown. Before he passed, my grandfather (who was 27 years old at the time of partition in 1947) told me stories of the bloodshed he witnessed in Punjab at the time. Sad stuff.
Of course this can be debated. In fact it’s almost certainly not the root cause. But your mind is so poisoned by hate that you can only see it one way. You have tried to take this incident out of context and spin it to justify your hate, so I’ll start by putting it back into context. Probably every week in North America someone is killed by someone who says that God told him to do it. Most of these people are mentally or emotionally troubled, and obviously that should be the first question about shooter in Germany as well, but I haven’t seen you even raise that question. Let’s also be clear that many people who are sane enough to be responsible for their actions have committed murders and terrorist acts in the name of the Christian God. From the Crusades to the IRA to the people who have killed abortion doctors, this has happened frequently throughout Christian history. If one was being serious about addressing this issue then one would try to understand why this has happened with these people, and then look to see if something similar has happened with the Muslims who commit similar crimes. In the Christian world uneducated people have been taken advantage of, and cult like tactics have been used to brainwash people. Even the KKK and white supremacist groups claim to be based in Christianity, which they most certainly are not. The key point in both of these examples is that although the perpetrators claim that they acted in accordance with their faith, or with God’s will, this is essentially never the case. How then could any fair minded Christian look similar acts committed by nominal Muslims and jump to the conclusion that these people did act in accordance with their faith or God’s will? Any Christian doing that would be using a double standard, and this is in fact what you have done. Further, you are educated enough that you definitely should know better than to do this, but you have done it anyway. This is the puzzle of Nazi Germany for many of us. How could otherwise educated and intelligent people engage in this kind of baseless hate? Would you care to take a stab at answering that question?
What I have gathered from this horribly derailed thread: a man is shot dead, and authorities, while not absolutely sure, are treating this as a possible hate crime case. But for some reason the topic gets changed (by our infamous resident D&D troll) to crimes against Jews and the implication that Muslims are behind them. And people fall for it. The troll wins again.
You fail to provide any facts to back up your wrong assertion. The guy confessed to the police and told them that his motivation was religious. Just because this does not support your wrong argument, it does not make it less true. Next, let's see you trying to spin the attack of 4,000 Muslims against Copts in Egypt into something where you say religion has nothing to do with it. On the contrary, I stick to the facts. You do not, because you have ideological blinders on. I am not spinning anything. What is there to spin? The guy murdered unarmed people and said he did so in the name of Islam. This happens every day somewhere in the world. One could argue that anyone who kills people because he thinks God told him to do it is "mentally or emotionally troubled". But this guy calmly planned the whole thing. Are you trying to say he must be insane? There are no facts to back up this assertion. But I am sure the courts will examine this. Goodness, the usual "but Christians have killed people too" argument from the ideologically motivated apologists, including all the usual buzz words "IRA, abortion doctors, KKK, crusades". Here are facts for you: More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. Of course it is not the case. What is the "key point" here? Nobody in their right mind assumes that this is the case. Of course God did not actually tell people (be they Muslim, Christian, or whatever) to kill people. No, completely wrong again (as usual). I am not saying that these people objectively act in accordance with their faith or God's will. But at some point you will have to ask yourself why so many people of one particular faith subjectively believe they do act in accordance with their faith or God's will when they kill people. And then you will have to ask yourself if there is something either in the roots of the faith or in the roots of the faith as it was taught to them (which might even be a perversion of the original faith, e.g. Wahhabism) that makes it more likely that people will be so intolerant that they resort to violence. I don't have any idea how educated you are or not, but you certainly seem to have ideological blinders on. Your usual reflex of trying to hatefully and aggressively shout down people when they do not fit your ideology (even if that is only expressed by asking uncomfortable questions) certainly was employed in many dictatorships, including Germany from 1933-1945. You are very quick to pull out the "racist/Nazi" card if someone disagrees with you, which shows the weakness of your argument. Pointing out ideological extremism (and Islamism is aggressive, expansionist and, as we see, in many cases violent ideological extremism, just like Nazism was - also with the same goal of killing Jews) and discussing how to address it is the opposite of being a Nazi. In fact, Nazism getting to power was only possible because people were not alert enough to recognize how incredibly dangerous this ideological extremism was, or because people shouted like you with your ideological blinders on shouted down those who warned of its dangers.
Dude, my post is full of facts, but you quote my first two sentences and try to say that I haven’t provided any facts?? Really? You’re sounding like a very desperate man. Ok, let’s track your facts, and let’s start with the completely baseless claim you make a mere 1 sentence after you said that you “stick to the facts”. Where are your facts showing that I have “ideological blinders” on? The answer is nowhere. No facts. People kill other people all the time and say that God told them to do it, and in virtually 100% of these cases the root issue has nothing to do with God, or the true religion the person claims to believe in. This is common knowledge, but I also provided several good examples above. iow I provided facts. Your spin is your suggestion that in this case, unlike virtually every other case, it was Islam that made him do it. Now, let’s track your facts. Did you provide any solid facts? No. None. As discussed above, and in my previous post, people say that God told them to kill someone all the time. You also make another extremely bizarre claim. You suggest that every day somewhere in the world people are murdering unarmed people in the name of Islam. Have you provided a single fact to back up your claim? No. Not one. Calmly planned the whole thing? Where are your facts? There are no facts showing he might have been insane? Where is your evidence that? Have you read the police report? Or is this just more of your spin and lies? Does anyone see any pertinent facts here? Even one? Nope. None. This is an extremely bizarre series of sentences, however. More people killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined?? What an incredibly bizarre and completely irrelevant comparison. I don’t believe it either, but that’s beside the point. It’s an utterly meaningless comparison, as is the next one. Has the KKK killed anyone in the last 50 years? What a completely meaningless comparison. Is this supposed to be some sort trick, or is it just the bizarre, incoherent, ramblings of a mind poisoned by hate? So which is it? You’re not saying, or you are saying? You claim not to be saying, but in fact you are saying. This is just more lies and spin. With respect to the question posed, when you asked yourself why so many “Christians” participated in the Crusades, and why they stole from and slaughtered so many innocent and defenseless people, what answer did you come up with? For everyone else following along, I just want to point out that this is yet another example of the kind of extreme double standard that raging bigots like ATW use. It’s dead obvious in this case, as it often is, but his mind is so corrupted by hate that he can’t see it. His hate is affecting his ability to grasp simple logic. In all seriousness, at this point we may be talking about clinical mental illness. Again with the phantom “ideological blinders”. I wonder if this is the equivalent of being called a Jew lover in Nazi Germany? Irony? Not quick at all. You are one of the most extreme cases I’ve ever seen. At this point, however, I’m starting to think there may be a more fundamental mental health issue involved. You’re not pointing anything out. You’re making wild, baseless, accusations. You’re presenting virtually no facts, and the ones you are providing are extremely bizarre and completely irrelevant. Your double standards are off the charts. There actually are some serious issues with respect to Islamic extremism, just as there are with any other kind of extremism, but nothing, and I mean NOTHING, you say on this board about Islam should be given any respect or treated seriously in any way. You are a RAGING BIGOT who is clearly utterly incapable of reasonable or rational thought on this issue. I don’t know what the root cause of your issue is, but you have a very, very, serious problem sir. To everyone else, watching ATW morph into a modern day Nazi is an educational experience, I guess. We’re getting to see firsthand the decay of a mind poisoned by extreme bigotry and hatred. I sure hope, however, that the Muslims on this board understand very clearly that most of us Christians on this board, and in North America for that matter, in no way support ATW’s attitude towards Muslims and Islam. I think what he’s doing here is appalling, and it wouldn’t be a stretch to call it evil.
You provided zero facts in yet another hate-filled rant. Your answer to the facts I provided was "I don't believe it". Nice work there, rookie.
Wow... Insane? Does anyone think that ATW may be becoming disturbed enough to pose a danger to the public? We could probably get Clutch to forward his IP to the German authorities. German law takes hate propaganda very seriously as well. It’s entirely possible that ATW has committed crimes with what he’s posted here. It’s worth checking into.
The only thing worth checking into would be you into some kind of rehab or mental institution facility. But please, let's see you embarrass yourself even more: What "crimes" have I - in your confused mind - committed by posting what, specifically, here? Attempt to back up your ridiculous claims, to keep us entertained.
Here’s one precedent worth looking at. On second thought I don’t think we even need to involve Clutch in this. If enough of us write to the appropriate German authority complaining about ATW’s hate campaign against Muslims on this forum I’m sure they’d have a look at it. I’ll do that research tomorrow and see if I can find the right email address. Let’s see if we can get this cowardly bigot off the streets! ATW even lives in Germany, and he’s obsessively spreading hateful lies about Islam. It’s not his site, mind you, but I guess we’ll have to see what the Germans think about that.
This is getting funnier by the minute :grin:. Grizzled in action: Spoiler By the way, "Grizzled" isn't even a Rockets fan, is he?
As you are the only poster who has not ever been right about anything, in any sub-forum of the BBS (be it GARM, NBA Dish, whatever), your false opinion does not really matter.
actually you have implied that because you have said time and time again that there is something inheritantly questionable about the religion and ideology itself, billions of people like myself and other american muslims read that same quran and same ideology, a very small few with their politlcal turmoil context take it for negative reasons, but when you question the ideology you attack people like myself as well. People who are religious, yet still patriotic Americans and all about peace
Man if I got a nickel for every time someone made this same point on this board. I have no doubt in my mind that in the near future he will post an article about a bombing by some ****face in some part of the world and ask, "What does this bomber and bin Laden and other Islamists have in common?"
