Islamists murder secular opposition politicians in Tunisia, Libya

yeah, me too.

your inability to tell what is a joke and/or not is in of itself somewhat funny. I thought the last one would tip you off. I mean, I was going to even ask you to drop your pants and mail us all a picture to make SURE you were qualified to TALK ABOUT EGYPT, but yeah...you should.

to fill in some other holes---

I am not defending the Muslim Brotherhood, I am defending democratic principles, and not justifying the military shutting down media stations, torturing protesters, or killing them

The Ba'ath Party history is all great and well---if you are familiar with it like you said, you are reinforcing my point that secular dictatorships are BAD. just sayin

Many of the protesters are unarmed. The first instance might have been dubious, but now a second? And in the main sit-in which has been mostly peaceful?

Your comparison to Sinn Fein seems to only further my argument that extremist parties can be made to play in democracies. And considering Sinn Fein is now one of the largest parties in Ireland, and Dublin hasn't fallen to the IRA barricades---

educate me on how Egypt under Mubarak had a worse case for freedom by the way. You seem to like to slam sham elections. But, I guess fun Irish Car Bombs and general chumminess with Roman Catholics is more fun than them scary Islamists. who cares what sham democracies they have to live under, the Irish are funner (okay they are, and the women probably more beautiful, but that's ALL I WILL CONCEDE)

lastly, some moron(s)---
http://www.cfr.org/experts/world/zachary-laub/b19316

and

WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS.

get out of the way, it's Jay's lane

 

I posted it in this very thread. If you can't even read my posts, or understand my arguments after I have clearly enumerated them, I can't do anything for you. As others have pointed out---defending democratic principles such as not having an elected president deposed in a military coup does not equal voting for the MB.

Just like me talking with you on this forum and entertaining your political views does NOT mean I agree with you. But I certainly don't want your views stifled, and you shut in a Mubarak-era prison for them. It also doesn't mean I would enjoy hitting up Tommorowland with you. a time and a place for everything. beat contrary views with votes.

if it makes you feel better, I'm a firm believer in deadmau5, and beautiful hair, which pretty much pegs me as NOT A MUSLIM, or not a very good one at least.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/9pSz1Hm3Z4k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

No, stop right there. You spent the last page defending the Muslim Brotherhood, not just "democratic principles". We all support "democratic principles", but when your "democratic principles" lead to one of the most undemocratic outfits on the planet trying to usurp all judicial and constitutional power then your "democratic principles" have failed.

Tell me... Just a thought experiment. When did the American Revolutionary war end? When was the US Constitution adopted? When was the first presidential election? (answers: 1783, 1787, 1788) Point? Actual effective government may take awhile to process. Don't expect immediate results. Egypt wanted immediate results and got Morsi. And here we are...

LOL, as opposed to Islamists dictatorships? Like Iran? Syria is going to be bad either way. How does an Islamist dictatorship in Libya sound? And hey, how's that Hizbollah stuff workin' out for Lebanon?

And enough of them are armed to cause problems. Google is your friend.

As far as the reporting I have seen no one has a good take on what started the violence. You think it's the military / police forces, which may be true. But in the end... so what? You are still arguing the MB's side, which can only benefit their attempt to regain power. Do you think they will deal with protesters peacefully?

And you have AGAIN completely missed my point. My comparison to Sinn Fein/IRA was only to illustrate that one body plays politics while the other blows crap up. You also ignored my disclaimer that the Irish were fighting for ACTUAL FREEDOM, while the MB is fighting for POWER to institute SHARIA. One group wanted freedom, the other group wants CONTROL.

An acceptable response at this point would have been "Of course Saddam's "elections" were sham elections, and of course Iran's election was a sham, BUT..."

Instead, you try to post about the validity of sham elections. Nice.

I've already told you. I lived in the Middle East. I've seen it up close and personal. What are YOURS?

 

Which would be totally fine if you weren't actually DEFENDING THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD.

But you are.

But I can only assume that you'd be totally cool with some Takfiri cutting my head off with a rusty knife, as would be custom under sharia for blaspheming against Allah? Because THAT is what you are defending.

Yeah, I'm not on drugs and I am not a kid, so I am not going to try and decipher some rave video.

I'll just go back to assuming you're just another run-of-the-mill atheist until you correct me with an actual answer. And BTW, stop being so full of yourself and assuming that everyone here follows or cares about who you are. You are just another voice on a very crowded message board, same as me, and not too many people really care who you are.

 

i dated a Lebanese girl.

I have gained fine appreciation for good skin, and olive oil as a result.

But screw my very apt qualifications for internet discussion! what about the people you call morons? If they're morons, does that not make you well, unqualified to speak on this matter?

don't worry about me. Worry about YOU.

As for the rest of your post---

You do realize the irony of wanting non-immediate results for democracy and getting the military to pump out an "immediate result"---I don't understand how you can say "democracy is a long haul ugly mess"---and then say "but I'm cool with having the military clean up some of that mess by deposing a democratically elected president and shooting at protesters."

Oh yeah, there's some rock-armed protesters---let's shoot the lot of them! Great.

No matter how much the MB sinned (and they did) against democratic values, what the military is doing is worse. And not "SHARIA-LAND strawman" worse like actual I can post instances of people dying worse.

Incidentally, please let me know why you think Morsi's original election was a sham election, and also why you insist on thinking that the Irish are so friendly and freedom-loving while Muslims can't be, beyond positing vague "sharia is my bad buzzword, though I don't really understand it" Thanks.

 

And BTW, if you would like I would be willing to send my "credentials" in the form of a DD214 showing my MOS, awards, service dates, etc, as well as my last NCOER showing what I did in Iraq to a moderator. I can even send copies of my deployment orders, stating exactly where I was. I would be willing to send it to Clutch, since I trust him. Say the word and I will send it, or at least ask him if he would be willing to step in and vouch (he may not care...). But if I do then you must agree to STFU forevermore about my "credentials" on related subjects. I am getting tired of you questioning my service. You, and others.

That is as close to "getting my credentials" as you are going to get. And I will reserve the right to ask about yours.

 

Given your last post I am just going to assume that you are drunk. I have to work tomorrow anyway...

 

I'm cool with you getting the death penalty for touching pigskin as the BIBLE COMMANDS or having people rock you to death for cheating on your wife or letting your wife have a period, or whatever the f**k that clause was.

seriously, I think you've been watching too much Fox News sharia law terror stories.

think whatever the f**k you want of me---if you think I'm full of myself because some dude on the internet keeps on asking me personal questions, and I posted answers on those personal questions in the very thread he asked them, well, that's your prerogative. We're one of many voices, I just happen to be the one that pierced your inner need for qualifications I guess.

 

Ach... Gotta say that I never said that Morsi's first election was a sham. It was legit. His party and the Salafists won a combined 2/3 of the vote.

You can't digest that any way other than a majority of the Egyptian people - or at least, the electorate - support Islamist government. Either that, or a substantial portion of them are morons and simply didn't understand what they were voting for.

Either way, if you are placing faith in their electorate to make rational decisions then you are in for a big fall.

G'night.

 

Add me on LinkedIn if you want my "credentials" for internet debate or better yet, discuss them with me live. I can also submit pictures of said girlfriend, and bottles of olive oil I have consumed. worst comes to worst, I also have videos...but like...don't make me go that way, yo. I just want to debate strangers on the internets.

I'm not questioning who you are, other than your sense of humor, at this point, but if you want to take it that seriously, go for it---I don't particularly care one way or another beyond the interest of seeing another human story (Which I suppose is fascinating in of itself). Have yourself confirmed and vetted if you'd like (be aware the Internet is place of nefarious intents, so don't feel the need to post it publicly, I'm being serious on this point). Know that it won't make any difference as to my probes with regards to Internet qualities (I just find that attitude way too off-putting).

Have a good day at work, thanks for your service. Left unsaid here is what I do to confirm my belief in helping veterans instead of just those words, but if you ever do want to discuss live---have at it.

 

That's not what democracy is unfortunately. Sometimes you have to live with dumb decisions for the benefit of including all perspectives, and getting people to buy into the system of having to live without their views being represented some of the time. You yourself said it was a long-haul mess. It is and will be for quite a while.

I don't think electing Islamic parties are a good idea, and if I was in Egypt now, I'd be focusing on getting Civis Analytics (http://www.businessweek.com/article...ric-schmidt-invests-in-obamas-big-data-brains) like help to Egypt's liberals...but, I should note, in contrast to getting the military to shut down a properly elected government.

 

hey hey come on now.

 

someone's got a hard-on, as always.

And the pics? haha, you wish.

Afraid I'm going to have to be a tease on this one for you ATW, I made it specifically clear as to the perils of posting things publicly on the Internet, and you fall into that category. I have no qualms doing so with teh Tree if he wants to share and share alike, and we've had a live discussion, but that's in the interest of sharing life stories, and sating his thirst for qualifications.

I have no interest of sharing stories with you (the little I do know has degenerated into a wave of one-liners and personal insults, not that I found you very interesting to begin with anyways). Tree at least makes an effort to engage, and does admittedly have a profile I can't find too often around, you don't sadly, and to be perfectly honest, I could care less what you think of me---well, because I know through your constant following of me through threads just to lob an insult, you love me just enough .

 

I couldn't care less.

Come on Northside, you're an educated man.

 

well, as long as the intent of the message was conveyed.

I also threw in a teh.

will they revoke my degree in proper englishs?

only time will tell

 

I don't think you understand my position, or where I think - based upon past history - democracy in Egypt (or most of the rest of the ME, for that matter) is going to lead. It will lead to the election of Islamist governments. Do you understand what an Islamist government is? That is not just a government that happens to be muslim, it is a government whose goal is to institute sharia. In Islam / sharia there is no separation of church and state; the clerics are the government.

Iran has an Islamist government, and they have been trying to spread their revolution for three decades now, to disastrous effect. Are you going to try and convince me that Iran's elections are not a complete sham? It doesn't even matter if their presidential or parliamentary elections happen to be above the level in any given year, they are still dominated by the Assembly of Experts, and ultimately the Supreme Leader calls the shots. Rule of law is for all intents and purposes nonexistent, as the Supreme Leader can change the law any time he sees fit. THAT is the type of government that Islamism aspires to.

So your desire for there to be true democracy in Egypt, perhaps well-intentioned, will not be realized by allowing actual democracy at this point. Why? Because at this point they will simply elect an Islamist government that will go about destroying the very democracy that put them there - exactly as Morsi attempted to do. They will get a new round of elections with the military at the helm for now.

Remember the original protests that brought down Mubarak? Those were the liberals out there, they are the ones who did it. And then the MB swooped in and took the reigns, to the liberals' chagrin. How did they do it? The MB has had decades to organize and already had an apparatus in place that could win elections. The liberals didn't. Now, the liberals will get a chance to organize. If they have any brains they will consolidate and form one or two large parties instead of 20 or 30 or however many of them there are.

But still... It likely won't end well. The problem in Egypt is not the process, it's the people. The process is simply a product of who the people are. The sad fact is that support for Islamist government is high because the people are, frankly, majority nutcases.

We'd all like to see democracy in Egypt. We'd all like to see freedom there. But neither is going to happen. They will either have the tyranny of military rule for a while or they will have the tyranny of an Islamist state. The question is will they also have stability. They will certainly NOT have stability with an Islamist state; the military, on the other hand, will eventually calm things down. And the military will not start a war with Israel, an Islamist state almost certainly would at some point, if for no other reason than for scapegoating purposes (a time-honored tradition in the Middle East) and to distract attention from domestic failures.

So the real choice is whether you want stability or not, because you're not going to get democracy right now either way. I'll take stability.

 

Yes, sure ATW, whatever makes you happy.

Well, I averted a potential stalker today. good times on the internets.