Islamic Presenation causes Contreversy in Houston Area Junior High

Not at all, the arguements still stand......is Islam peaceful or not? Does Muhammed change over time as he gains in power and change the overall message?

Only Bosh has addressed the point that had verses from the Koran quoted, and he was only partial in his answer.

You can not ignore what people are doing in the name of Islam, just as Christians can not ignore David Koresh....

The difference is that it is happening a lot more in the name of Islam than any other religion.

And so far, everyone has been ducking the question of Islam and it's message, my guess is that they now try to make this about "someone hates Islam" argument rather than a real hard look at their religion and the teachings/text contained in their own Koran.

You know the propagation of Islam through violence.

DD

 

The Issue should have been brought to the parents attention before it occurred no doubt in my mind.

I also believe there should be separation of state and religion.

History class may hit on religion in public schools but it never should over reache its boundaries such as preaching.

I think we as Americans should have a better understanding of Islam and what it represents because it is a current world issue but it should not be in public school.

 

Wow, this thread is still going...Dakota has an unhealthy obsession with Islam...It's quite comical. I think SpiffyRifi ended the thread with his analysis.

 

This guy is right on the dot, i have great respect for you after that post even though its the first time i've seen your name


Btw...DD...the way your coming out right now sounds very narrow minded and ignorant...saying something like:

"If Islam is so peaceful why are people blowing themselves up?"

That proves exactly why you need that lesson..to answer your question.

And if you didn't know , the only 2 places thats happening is Iraq and Palestine..both war zones, you don't hear about all the other Muslim countries or their people committing such acts now do you?

I'm actually very dissapointed in the way your coming out about this, being a muslim myself i am actually very proud of who i am and i don't think anyone i know has ever strapped a bomb to their chest and blown themselves up, why must you label everyone due to a few?

 

I actually insist that Dada keeps responding.

Muhammad PBUH acquired more power, absolutely. He used it more, you're absolutely right. As his kingdom grew in power, more wars were waged. Does this phenomenon sound familiar to you? It's called "Reality". Welcome to it. You're living in it buddy.

How about you take a look at yourself? Freedom to practice my religion is a basic human right. Ask the United Nations. I don't think that's possible since several religion fundamentally intrude on other religions' ability to practice their entire religion freely, but whatever.

The U.S., on instruction from its leaders, has blown up more civillians than the combination of all suicide bombers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. THIS is factual Dada. This is real.

I also find it insanely humorous that you want to alter (which basically means wipe out) my religion to suit yours. One would think that you would read the Qura'an before deciding to erase Islam. Natural Justice: hear both sides out and don't be biased. Major FAIL on your part.

I seriously think you need to take a deep breath, clear your mind and take a look at things objectively. You are the prototypical person who gets brainwashed by the media and then forms views afterwards.

In any case, I hope that you haven't forgotten that you DO believe in God and that he has created you just like he has created me. If he has created us all with equal rights, then none of us are better than the other. That's what's important. I know it's difficult to find boundaries when all you know is that God exists and you have to decide for yourself what he wants and doesn't, but keep in mind that you are imperfect by nature and you will undoubtedly (make NO mistake about it) be wrong in a significant number of instances about what he wants (and of course, the same applies to any human).

 

I'll make this as simple as possible for the narrow minded one who keeps proving over and over his transparent ignorance in this thread.

The terrorists and extremists who are killing in the name of their God are just distorting the words of their religious scriptures to fit their cause. This goes for the Islamic terrorists of today, for the Christian Crusaders of that time, the Nazis during WWII, the Spanish government during the Spanish Inquisition, the KKK that stills exists today, the list goes on and on...

Islamic people like Hakeem Olajuwon has said that Islamic people are peaceful in nature, don't let a small group of extremists color your vision that all are bad or that the religion itself abdicates violence. Anybody can take words from a book and twist it to their own interpretation.

Religion might be the number one cause of war in the history of mankind but its funny that the same people who follow a certain religion can have many different types of groups in each religion and have different ways to interpret their scriptures. How many kinds of Christian groups and churches we have these days?

You want an alternative reason why a small group of Islamic people want to kill us and why we're unpopular with so many Islamic people? Because we are invading their land getting their oil without much thought to their concerns, values, and beliefs.

So the Islamic terrorists/extremists are the true symbol of what Islam is all about? How come Hakeem hasn't strapped a bomb to himself and walked into the TC in the name of Allah already?

 

Those who worship the God of Abraham (Jews, Christians and Muslims) worship a God of Peace. Those who worship gods of war like Mars ... don't. I can find plenty of instances in the Bible where God uses His instruments to kill (not murder) in war (David vs Goliath is a good example), but never does He use war to spread His message. Mankind does.

I used the Virginia example because it is from an Islamic textbook which is not confined to that one school. So, since someone insisted I was talking about Muslims (and I never specified any religion or belief set), I suspect there is a guilt complex at work.

ChrisBosh is the one who asked me to cite "where your research came from in regards to the bolded statement?"

(However, I do not want any of my federal, state or local tax dollars going to promote any religion, including my own, and particularly those that advocate violence against "non-believers."

This is a truth that should be self-evident to any rational, peace-loving person.

This type of question/statement by ChrisBosh leads one to conclude that he/she believes that anyone who is not Muslim must be a "non-believer."

How so? I stated that religion should be kept out of publicly funded or subsidized schools ... period .... so that parents, regardless of their religion or non-religion, can teach their children as they see fit. Ultimately, those children will mature and be able to reach their own conclusions about life.

Incidentally, there have been some pretty weird Christian sects, but the main church bodies immediately decry them -- as they should. There is no similar outcry and active assistance against Muslim terrorists from the Muslim community -- perhaps out of fear of being ostracized by their clergy. I don't know for sure, but the quiet of the Muslim community makes me wonder.

 

This in itself is horrifying.....where are the main leaders condemnation of these terrorist attacks? What about Tehran, or any other theocratic state?

Also, how laughable that so many of the theocratic states whine about the treatment of Palastinians, when those same Palastinians are not even welcomed in their own Muslim countries.

In many of them the Palastinians can not even hold citizenship.

The original topic of this thread still stands, no religious group should be able to come in and have an assembly, especially by strong arm tactics like CAIR used.

However, now the discussion has shifted, and Ehsan you are correct, the reality is that Muhammed's life changed, and thus so did his message.

But why? I mean if he were truly talking to God, why would God's message change ?

Do you really think God told him to conquer non-believers and to smite them?

You think God took into account Muhammed's circumstances and altered his message? I mean...REALLY?

I mean that is the God you want to believe in?

Because that is NOT the God I believe in.......

Great, let's see that in Saudi Arabia, and in Iran....freedom to practice any religion without getting outcast for doing it....or even killed because of it.

But I do agree, people are free to practice whatever religion they like, but don't be surprised that due to this freedom people take a good hard look at what it is that someone is worshiping, and questions the legitimacy of it.

What does any of that have to do with the topic at hand, so you are now saying that just because someone else does something wrong - that it somehow validates what Islamic terrorists are doing?

2 wrongs now make a right?

Where did I say I want to whipe it out? I just want to see it questioned, and for people to discuss whether Muhammed really was a Prophet, or just a religious leader whose his message changed as his life changed. Because to me, God's message does not change based upon one's life circumstances/experiences.

Now we are getting somewhere, so you think humans can be mistaken, I agree, so based upon this, perhaps Muhammed was mistaken when he was reciting the Koran. Because as it rambles around back and forth, and changes it's tune as his life changed it sure sounds like something an imperfect human would say.

That doesn't sound like it comes from God to me.

DD

 

One last item: Just because a person questions something doesn't mean they are prejudiced for or against the something that is being questioned.

Personally, I am tired of the martyrdom/anger that many posters take on if their positions/beliefs are questioned. Mine are questioned all the time, but I don't don the mantle of persecution.

 

You should check your facts:
Muslim scholars decry terrorism

Spanish Muslims decry Al Qaeda

American Muslims Embrace Diversity, Decry Stereotypes, Panel Says

Free Muslims Coalition (a group tht does exactly what you claim the muslim community does not do)

A list of articles discussing this very topic

Just because you make a statement doesn't make it true.

No, the fact that you stereotype based on extreme examples does that.

I'm done with this argument - you and DaDakota can continue your war of ignorance and I'll follow the lead of Mark Twain from this point forward, something I should've done days ago I suppose:

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference - Mark Twain

 

Typical, when someone can look at the same thing and come to a different conclusion it is easier to label them a fool than to figure that maybe, just maybe they just came to a different viewpoint.

If you are so sure you are in the right faith, good for you, be happy. Just don't be shocked that others may find that faith to be questionable.

DD

 

Well said, DaDakota.

However, I am glad to see SpiffyRifi come up with some examples I did not know about. However, whereas I recant my stance on total absence of outcry, the volume still seems so limited that it is not readily apparent to the average bear.

 

I really want to see is the Muslim leaders in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Iran, etc..etc..etc...the place where the Muslim faith is based or has a firmer foothold say they are against terrorirsm. I want the Mullahs to come out and say they are for peace, instead of hearing about whiping Israel off the face of the map etc...etc...etc..etc..etc...

Because until that happens, and the moderates take control of their faith, it will continue to have negative ramifications on the Islamic faith as a whole.

The Christians went through this in the Dark Ages with the Spanish Inquistion, the slaughter of the Cathars in France and many other instances.....

They finally had moderates take control over radicals......Lord knows there are still wack job radicals out there preaching their stuff, but for the most part they are marginalized....

Let's see if leaders like Al-Sadr get marginalized too, when that happens, we may have something.

And I would really appreciate it if someone could answer my post above about how Muhammed's message changed over his lifetime.....and their thoughts on why God/Allah would change his message based upon one man's struggles or life experiences.

DD

 

DD you and Thumbs have missed the point of the whole presentation and why it was presented. You guys are making it sound like the presentation was "Convert or Die" Seriously it was about what Islam is, what it believes, what they don't eat and why they dress a certain way. There was nothing about forcible proselyzation it was as innocuous as a presentation saying that Christians believe Jesus was reborn and lives in Heaven or that some Jews were funny hats because their is a line in the Old Testament regarding covering thy head. Yet you guys are equating such banal statements with that Crusades or wiping out the Hittites.

 

The presentation was NOT necessary, it was two students that had a disagreement, one of which HAPPENED to be Muslim.

CAIR....threatened to turn it in to the FBI as an alleged "Hate Crime" even though religion had NOTHING to do with the harrasment/bullying.

The principal was told NOT to involve the student body, she did anyway, and was reassigned because of it.

The presentation NEVER should have happened without parental consent. PERIOD.

The rest of this discussion has evolved from there.

DD

 

DD needs to have a convo with Hakeem

 

I have to agree with DaDakota here. The presentation should have never been allowed without the consent of the parents.

PERIOD people. End of Conversation. Big 'ol dot

 

I doubt that I would take religious counsel from a former NBA player.

But I do respect the choice Hakeem made, and am happy it worked out for him.

Doesn't mean I agree with him on the matter........and I wouldn't want Hakeem speaking to those kids about Islam without Parental permission either.



DD

 

Well its pretty much settled, most parents would not want their kids being lessoned on religon without their consent...even though it may not be the best choice they have the right to what their children hear and do

 

Every major religious organization has decried terrorists. The reason you don't hear about it is because the media doesn't see that as savvy news. Thats also why you don't see Generation One revitalizing the 3rd ward every day and End Hunger sending out food on the news. These things all happen everyday, but the coverage isn't there. Sex, violence, controversy, and the like sells. Why are Bill O'Reily or Rush Limbaugh still on the radio? They present that image to stir the pot. and they're very good at it.

DD- your views are idealized. while I agree there should be separation, the reality is that there isn't. And at this point, its nearly impossible to make a clean break. The better route is EDUCATION, which is what school is about. I have learned about Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism all through school. Ive overwhelmingly been exposed to Christianity at school. I have also been told what people think Muslim people believe. Sometimes this information has been incorrect. CAIR did the same thing that the ADL or the like would do.

Finally, the CAIR presentation was not "recruitment." I can say this from first hand that it was an educational presentation. It gave definitions and educated the audience on things that Muslims believe. It didn't tell people that "This is what is right and what you should believe." It should be remembered that there was a crime fueled by hatred of another kid's beliefs at school. The principal acted to diffuse the situation through education, and unfortunately, mass hype and hysteria made her resign. It was unfortunate that a woman with the right idea was kicked out.