Islamic Presenation causes Contreversy in Houston Area Junior High

That needs no "research." The truth of that statement goes without saying for anyone with any set of beliefs.

 

someone please post a naked gif so that this thread can die already

 

I WILL ADDRESS EVERYONE'S PROBLEMS HERE:


First i have to relate to DD, i understand how it can be growing up my parents took my business and made it entirely into their business. But, thats because they care, IF YOUR NOT A PARENT YOU WON'T UNDERSTAND THIS. Now, as a teen father I have come to realize this really well. You know how you're young and you tell yourself you hate girls and always will? Well next thing you know your married to one, its kind of like that, the feelings of the child vs the feeling of the parent.


DD, however...the Islam thing is an exception

What you have to realize is that, Islam is not really just a religon for many countries, but a CULTURE. You will find that most aspects of the religon are incorporated with the cultures and customs, coming from a muslim himself. Basically when you teach islam to other kids, just like any other religon you are stopping them from going, "Wtf, why are they so wierd? Why are they doing this? Why are they doing that?" Most of the middle east believes in Islam and it is glued to their cultures, just like what you would learn in a history class you are learning there.

I understand how sensitive you are to this topic, but just out of question...

Were you one of the parents that denied their kid sex ed or something? B.C i know you need a permission slip or something for that

Also, would it be better if Hakeem Olajuwon was the presenter in this case?

 

and this post by itself shows why information should be taught to students regarding Islam... you're clearly implying that Islam advocates violence against "non-believers." I'm guessing you base that on terrorists and their mantras - much like most of America, but it simply isn't true. Islam is at its core a religion of tolerance, the fact that some have manipulated that message for their own ends gives the rest of the Muslims a bad name.

I guess we could say all Christians advocate violence against non-believers too, I mean that's what the crusades were all about, right? Recapturing the holy land from the infidels? Or wait, the Spanish inquisition was about figuring out who non-believers were. I could rattle off more examples...I guess all Chrsitians advocate violence against non-believers

Oh and one other thing, and this horse has been beaten to death - this was NOT promoting religion...everyone has acknowledged that by now.

 

I stand by every word of my post. If you noticed, I did not point out any specific religion or even set of beliefs.

I feel the same way about any religious persecution whether by a majority or a minority, past or present. This includes the cultists raping children out in West Texas. As far as their "schools." even if they were not getting money from any government entity, they were violating the laws of the land.

However, if you want to examine Muslims, there is a Muslim school in Virginia that has textbooks (as in more than one school must be using them) that advocate killing "non-believers." That doesn't seem too enlightened or tolerant to me. If that example were limited, it could be overlooked as in the case of the Mormons saddled with their extreme sects. Unfortunately, Muslims have done little to nothing to clear their religious name.

 

It seems to me alot of you are missing the point.........


As an administrator you are taught to react responsibly in the face of youth and conflict.

If a fight were to break out would you not want the school employees to break it up? w/o consulting the parents first?

They were simply taking up for those who had unfairly been harassed and educating those who did something offensive.

This was simply an education to avoid any future conflict and give the student body something to chew on when exposed to certain disgusting behavior against a certain religious group on campus. That is all.

If y'all are so concerned with the messages being presented you should have an open dialogue with your children to where you discuss the events of their day and give your opinions and how it relates to you and your family mission statement.

I don't believe that tolerance was or is discussed with a small group of students in this case. Hence the winbagging that has taken place in this Debate & Discussion.

 

Flagrant1 (love that nickname btw),

No you are missing the point.

This was an incident between two students that had NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH RELIGION.

But, CAIR found out one of the students involved was a Muslim...so they interjected themselves in, and strong armed their way into a presentation.

The Principal backed down to them for fear of dealing with a trumped up reported "hate crime"......

Then, she allowed the presentation without allowing the parents a say in the matter, nevermind that religious presentatations are banned in public school systems to begin with.....

Sook,

I do understand that Muslim beliefs are a complete and total culture and mindset...there is no seperation of church and state, especially in a lot of Islamic countries.

That in itself is another problem with the Islamic faith, but my biggest beef is not with a religion and it's overall credibility, but rather that an organization shoe horned their way into an issue between 2 students and forced the principal to organize an illegal presentation.

IMHO, the Principal should have told CAIR to piss off and butt the heck out.

DD

 

Are you saying it doesn't? Because the Koran says differently.....this probably deserves it own thread, but.......since the discussion is here....

Here is an article comparing and contrasting Christianity and Islam, and the study of the violence taught in the Koran and how it mirrored Muhammed and his conquering ways late in life.

From the article:

-----------------------------------------------------

Muhammad instructed his followers in making war as a religious obligation. At first the enemies were the idol worshippers of the Koreish tribe in Mecca, but later it included the Jews and Christians who did not accept Muhammad as prophet.

This teaching is found in numerous verses of the Koran. Richard Bailey lists 32 passages, annotating them with valuable comments. For the sake of brevity I refer only to four of them. In Sura 2:190 instruction is given to fight until persecution is stopped and Islam is established: "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter."

In Sura 2:216 Muslims are commanded to fight for the cause of Allah, even if they do not like, because Allah knows what is best for them: "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not." Statements such as these make it abundantly clear that for a devout Muslims who follows the teachings of the Koran, fighting to advance the cause of Islam is a divine obligation that can hardly be ignored.

In Sura 8:12,13 Muslims are instructed to cut the necks and fingers of those who opposed God and to never turn their back on unbelievers: "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them. This because they contended against God and His Apostle. If any contend against God and his Apostle, God is strict in punishment ... O ye who believe! When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day –unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own) – he draws on himself the wrath of God, and his abode is hell, – an evil refuge (indeed)! It is not ye who slew them; it was God."

The instruction is clear. When in combat, there is no room for second thought. Muslim soldiers are to finish the job by smiting the head and cutting the fingers of their enemies. The intent of these amputations was to make it impossible for the victims ever to fight again.

Sura 61:4,11-13 teaches that God loves those who fight in His cause with determination. He will give them victory, forgiveness of sins and admission to the pleasure of paradise: "Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure ... that ye believe in God and His Apostle, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the cause of God, with your property and your persons. That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to gardens [Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in gardens of eternity. That is indeed the supreme achievement. And another (favor will He bestow), which ye do love–help from God and a speedy victory. So give the glad tidings to the believers."

One of the benefits of fighting for the cause of Islam is the permission to take captured women as concubines, in addition to several legitimate wives. Sura 33:50: says: "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers, and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom God has assigned to thee ... For the believers (at large), We know that We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess ..." The notion that God would assign captured women as concubines to Muslim believers who fight for His cause, hardly reflect high moral standards of the Islam faith. Polygamy and servile concubinage have destroyed the dignity of women and the beauty of the home. In this areas the infinite superiority of Christianity is clearly evident.

By teaching that those who die fighting for the cause of Allah will have their sins forgiven and are admitted into the pleasure of Paradise, the Koran has inspired Muslims throughout the centuries to fight unto death for the cause of Allah. Today it is inspiring young Palestinians become suicide bombers. For them a "martyr's death" is the surest and quickest way to a better life of comforts, prosperity, and pleasures in Paradise. "Suicide bombers" see themselves as carrying out the teaching of the Koran, while serving their communities and acquiring admission in paradise.

Sura 55:52-58 describes Paradise as a place where there "will be fruits of every kind, two and two... They will recline on carpets, whose inner linings will be of rich brocade. The fruit of the gardens will be near (and easy to reach)... In them will be (maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched ... like unto rubies and coral." The sensual element pollutes even Islam's vision of Paradise. Believers are promised not only blooming gardens, abundant food, fresh fountains, but also beautiful virgins. Seventy-two beautiful virgins will be created for the enjoyment of the meanest believer. A moment of pleasure will be prolonged a thousand years. This pleasure-oriented Paradise differs radically from the Biblical view of the world to come as this planet earth restored to its original perfection for the habitation of the redeemed who will engage in productive activities and the elevating worship of God.

Stage Four: Offensive War is Commanded Against the Pagans, Christians and Jews.

The final phase of Muhammad's teaching on warfare developed after he conquered Mecca in 630 A. D. Most of the pagans living in the city became Muslims. At that time Muhammad was able to take over the city and cleanse the Ka'aba (sacred shrine) of some 360 idols resident there.

At this point it became evident to Muhammad that Jews and Christians would not accept him as prophet, so they became part of the list of Islam's enemies to be conquered. Thus, warfare was no longer to be a defensive fighting, but an aggressive Jihad against all unbelievers. This is the final teaching of the Koran which is still in force today and has inspired the recent acts of terrorism.

There are several texts commanding offensive warfare to kill the pagans, Jews, and Christians. Among them Sura 9:5 stands out for its explicit injunction to slay the infidels: "When the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war). But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity [become Moslem], then open the way for them." The best way for people to save their lives, was by renouncing their religion and adopting the Islam faith. In some instances conquered people could save their lives by paying a heavy tribute and becoming submissive to Muslim rulers.

In the same chapter, Sura 9:29-31, Muslims are commanded to fight Jews and Christians until they are subdued. Those who submitted themselves to Muslim rulers were to be subjected to a heavy tribute. The reason is because God's curse is upon them: "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book [Christians and Jews], until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call Uzair [Ezra] a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the Son of God ... God's curse be on them."

Sura 5:36-38 prescribes four types of punishments for those who oppose Allah and his prophet, Muhammad: "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the hereafter, except for those who repent before they fall into your power. In that case, know that God is oft-forgiving, most merciful. O ye who believe! Do your duty to God. Seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in His cause, that ye may prosper."

The four types of punishments (cutting off the head, crucifixion, maiming, or exile), which were to be applied according to the circumstances, reveal the ruthless methods used by Muslims invaders to advance their religion. Such methods stand in stark contrast to the teachings of Jesus to win men and women for the Kingdom of God by proclaiming the Good News of God's saving grace through the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

The Teachings on Holy Warfare in Muhammad's Traditions ("Hadith")

The teachings of the Koran on the use of the sword to advance the cause of Islam, are corroborated by the collections of traditions ("Hadith") concerning the teaching of Muhammad. The nine volumes by Iman Bukhari are generally regarded as the most authentic of the Hadith literature. In volume 4 alone Richard Bailey found 283 passages teaching holy warfare (Jihad) to advance the cause of Islam. For the sake of brevity I will quote only four of them

Muhammad said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it" (4:50). Again he said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords." (4:73). For Muhammad fighting for the cause of Allah was a way of life. He said, "My livelihood is under the shade of my spear, and he who disobeys my orders will be humiliated by paying Jizya" ( 4:162b).

The "Jizya" is the poll tax paid by subjugated peoples in return for their right to exist. Muhammad said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshiped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshiped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (4:196 ). The order is clear. Muslims had to fight people until they became Muslims.

Scholarly Support for the Four Stages Evolution of Jihad

We have briefly sketched the four stages evolution in Koran's teaching on "holy war" (Jihad) from no retaliation, to permissible defensive fighting, to obligatory defensive fighting, and finally to offensive war at all times. Numerous scholars recognize that this evolutionary teaching on the use of warfare corresponds to the stages of development in Muhammad's thought and circumstances. Two quotes from reputable sources suffices to prove this point.

The first quote is from Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, the English translator of Sahih Al-Bukhari's nine volume collection of the traditions (Hadith) regarding the teachings of Muhammad. In his introduction to these volumes, Dr. Muhsin Khan writes: "So at first 'the fighting' was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory: (1) against those who start 'the fighting' against you (Muslims) ... (2) and against all those who worship others along with Allah ..." (p. xxiv).

The second quote is from the article on "Jihad" found in the Brill's Encyclopedia of Islam. The author writes: "The jihad is a duty. This precept is laid down in all the sources. It is true that there are to be found in the Kur'an divergent, and even contradictory, texts. These are classified by the doctrine, apart from certain variations of detail, into four successive categories: those which enjoin pardon for offences and encourage the invitation to Islam by peaceful persuasion; those which enjoin fighting to ward off aggression; those which enjoin the initiative in attack provided it is not within the four sacred months; and those which enjoin the initiative in attack absolutely, at all times and in all places."

The article continues, saying: "In sum, these differences correspond to the stages in the development of Muhammad's thought and to the modifications of policy resulting from particular circumstances; the Meccan period during which Muhammad, in general, confines himself to moral and religious teaching, and the Medina period when, having become the leader of a politico-religious community, he is able to undertake, spontaneously, the struggle against those who do not wish to join this community or submit to his authority. The doctrine holds that the later texts abrogate the former contradictory texts ... to such effect that only those of the last category remain indubitably valid" (p.538).

The doctrine in question is known as "the law of abrogation" which is accepted by Muslim scholars. According to this doctrine the later "verses of the sword" superceded the earlier "verses of forgiveness." This means that gradually Muhammad came to accept the military Jihad as a legitimate and essential strategy to promote the expansion of Islam. No matter what people may think, Muhammad was not only a religious leaders, but also a military commander who waged war against his enemies as soon he consolidated his power and developed a fighting force.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

To me it does not sound like a religion of peace...but one of conquest and submission....

Now cue the people that will come in and question the source and ignore the article and it's merits.....



DD

 

So this is really what you have a problem with

 

Did you read the article? Nothing to say about the text from the Koran? Nothing?

Of course I have a problem with a religion whose text teaches killing or maiming of non-believers as a way of propagating itself, don't you?

And for the record, I would have been just as against a Christian assembly too.

DD

 

Do you have a problem with Christmas being taught/celebrated at school?

 

Christmas is not celebrated in school here in Austin. My kids have a winter break.

Now, answer my question, and quit ducking it.

Concerning the violent text in the Koran....

Do you have a problem with the text of a religion condoning violence as a way to propogate itself?

Cue the crickets.....


DD

 

Sura 2:190...

I don't have the time to go through all the quotes the article provides, so I'll focus on the first one above to show how this article uses excerpts from the Quran to make it’s point. You probably know taking out a sentence out of a paragraph can distort the meaning of the passage.

To show what the finished paragraph from text quoted looks like (Bolded part was left out):

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. But fight them not. At the Sacred Mosque, Unless they (first) Fight you there; But if they fight you, Slay them. Such is the reward. Of thos who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on. Until there is no more Tumult or oppression, And there prevail Justice and faith in God; But if they cease, Let there be no hostility. Except to those Who practise oppression."

Taken as a whole it becomes clearer in what context the violence is justified. The original text is in Arabic, so sometimes it takes a further explanation to get a better understanding. It’s obvious this passage explains that you are only allowed to fight against those who suppress your freedom to have faith in your religion.

DD, you make a lot of bold statements against Islam and show little to no understanding, I really can’t comprehend how someone who’s so far removed from trying to learn about religion in general is so adamant on showing how bad/violent Islam is. I’ll admit I’m no expert on religion either, far from it (I’m not religious nor knowledgeable) though unlike you I don’t come out and speak against any religion due to this....

To me it seems rather obvious you’ve done research on how “islam is not a peaceful religion” on google, you’d get millions of hits (mostly all biased and filled with hatred), hell if you google “islam IS a peaceful religion” you’ll still get millions of hits showing how it’s NOT peaceful. Not exactly the best place to get different perspectives is it?.........Anyway the more you’ve posted in this thread the more obvious it’s become that this seminar about Islam was useful and justified, it’s apparent that parents might actually be the source of misinformation.

Some quotes:

Whosoever killed a person – unless it be for killing a
person or for creating disorder in the land – it shall be
as if he had killed all mankind.
(Al Maidah, Ch.5: v. 33)

Explaining this verse: ‘ A person who kills a person unfairly or who kills someone who had neither rebelled, nor became a source of violating peace amongst the people nor created disorder in the land, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind. In other words to kill a person without any cause is, according to God A l m i g h t y, like the murder of the entire human race. It is obvious from this verse, how big a sin it is to take the life of another person without r e a s o n . ’
(L e c t u re Chashma-e-Ma’rifat pp 23-24: C o m m e n t a ry by the Promised Messiah Vol.2: p.405)



There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
(Ch.2:V.257)

 

Chirp...Chirp....Chirp.

 

Bosh,

I can see how some are taken out of context, but you have to admit there are inconsistencies in Muhammed's message, and it changes as he gains in power and status in life, his early teachings are far different than his later ones....etc.

We have blown so far off course concerning the original topic, and no, it was NOT justified, never was, never will be.

The entire point is that CAIR interjected itself into an issue and strong armed the principal into letting them have an illegal presentation.

This country has a seperation of Church and State for a reason, it was founded by oppressed religious people who recognized the importance of being able to worship as you see fit, even the right to believe in no religion....

Just look at the countries that are theocracies and see how they are doing, throughout history, they have failed, because religion in general does not allow for a free flow of ideas, good or bad.

And Islam is no different, it certainly seeks to propagate, and make itself the only religion, and expouses to be the one true religion.

This is the main problem I have with ANY religion....I do not for one second believe that God would give only one people the right religion and then ignore the rest.

If we are truly Gods creatures, then that means EVERYONE....Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, Agnostic, Atheist...everyone....

While I question all faiths, the one that is doing the most damage these days is the Islamic faith, for while all terrorists are not Muslim, right now, the good majority of them are......and that to me, is a problem that can not be ignored.


DD

 

Why is winter break centered around Christmas? Why do school get good Friday off?

 

So you are using one example to indict an entire religion. I would venture to guess that the media doesn't focus on muslim schools teaching messages of peace - that doesn't tend to be exciting news. I never said no muslims were violent - but as a whole they aren't. I could point to countless examples of violence caused by Christians in the name of religion (both historically and in current day), but I don't believe that makes all Christians violent against non-believers - that's where you and I differ. You make broad sweeping statements based on extreme examples - there's a word for that, prejudice (or stereotyping if you prefer). Being a Southern Baptist, I'd assume you know all to well the danger of prejudice - as there are some very non favoriable stereotypes out there for Southern Baptists.

As for Muslims not doing anything to clear their name, I would venture to guess assemblies like this attempt to do just that, but intolerant people shut it down. Chris Bosh has already posted some good analysis of the peacful core of the religion - so I won't rehash it. But your post exemplifies precisely why we need these assemblies. For all those who say, don't worry we'll teach it at home - if you teach the same things you discuss here, that's precisely why they shouldn't be taught solely at home. The goal is to have tolerance across the board - not to teach your children the misinformation you seem to state as fact and further divides between people.

 

Why are people blowing themselves up in the name of Islam, isn't that a more important question than Good Fridays or Christmas break?

If Islam is peaceful it sure is doing a strange job of showing it.


DD

 

QFT....
NOW END THIS THREAD

 

This is probably the most ignorant thing you've said the whole time...but it gets to the heart of your real problem with this issue. It basically nullifies your "rational" arguments and exposes your true feelings...and it also makes the point the rest of us have been making